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Re Release of Karnan
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Vatsan



Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Change Reply with quote

Now I have already spewed enough venom on this. Chucking vitriol here in this forum cannot change anything in the outside world.

Looking at things differently, since the re-released version is a huge commercial hit, I am sure the younger generation will start listening to the Karnan songs with renewed zest and enthusiasm.
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madhuraman



Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 1226
Location: navimumbai

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:27 pm    Post subject: The impoverished KarNan Reply with quote

Dear Mr. Vatsan, Mr.Vaidy and others.,
It may be a commercial hit; but, the lurking fear is youngsters should not ascribe cacophony to MSV. World has become too selfish and materialistic at the expense of quality burying emotions deep into the sea, parading around as saviours of classics. Oh God, give us the times free from such misadventures in the days ahead.
Thanks for the opportunity. Warm regards K.Raman Madurai
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vaidymsv



Joined: 08 Nov 2006
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Location: Madras, India

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:14 pm    Post subject: SELECTIVE AMNESIA Reply with quote

Hi SRS, Raman, Vatsan.

Wanna put this in a nut shell??? Selective amnesia!!!


MSV IS MUSIC
VAIDYMSV

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Vatsan



Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:05 am    Post subject: Action Reply with quote

As I stated earlier, let us think up of something to arrest this disturbing trend. Let us get to doing something concrete. Suggestions please...
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tvvraghavan



Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To reduce the heat...I would start by listening to the recently unearthed marvels....in the links below... This was a surprise package for me...

http://youtu.be/OryzsNzhBvM

http://youtu.be/2wWdF_kZhjA
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S.Balaji



Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 772

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear All,

Amongst this anguish, I am also observing that most of us have been attributing the success to MSV only ! Embarassed It will be grossly unfair if TKR is forgotten. This has been an absolute team work .

In a way, this will be injustice to TKR , the giant . There is something unique and special in the songs of MSV-TKR combination !
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N Y MURALI



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 920
Location: CHENNAI

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After many views ans high running emotions on the subject of the re release of Karnan I happened see the re release version in Sathyam Theatre yesterday.

The impressions I had during the same was

General Information
That it was a commercially successful venture. I feel the reproducer would not have even imagined the level of success he had in this venture. I saw a good number of families came together to watch a movie.

I saw good number of younger audience among the crowd which is very encouraging. My daughter was with me who enjoyed every bit of Sivaji's acting. No Y G Mahendran or any Sivaji's fan was influencing her as she herself became of ardent lover of his acting.

There was a slide first about the reproducer Divya Films and followed by a slide thanking Sivaji's son Ramkumar & Family and Y G mahendran & family for their support.

Then there was a slide about the people who involved in the remaking and a person by name Iniyavan was mentioned who worked in the additional re working of the musical part.

About the Picture quality
The picture was jumping for the first 30 to 40 minutes. I got irritated for while . The colour of the picture was better in the old version. There were loft of unpleasing colours as if the film was bleached.

About Acting:
I can only say just class. The emotions of Sivaji was unparalleled. The role Asokan, Savithri did was also extremely good. I felt for the first time how NTR acted in this movie. While Sivaji was very emotional since the character requires NTR was just opposite very calm and cool which is very requirement for the Krishna character. It can be dubbed in Telugu which could also run successfully for NTR.

Continuing the posting in the next for subject music in my next posting.

N Y Murali


Last edited by N Y MURALI on Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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N Y MURALI



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 920
Location: CHENNAI

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Music:
Very sensitive listener like me cannot bear the torture that had been meted out to Music. Whatever the new technology called DTS brought was just contrary to what MSV & TKR and particularly the original version sound record engineer Rangaswamy would have wished it to happen.

I mean that where ever the singers voice, it got suppressed with respect to the music and there is no cogency.

I could clearly feel in the song 'Kangal enge' in which the decibel level of PS voice with respect to the music is 1:2 where as it should on the reverse. The very essence of this song was the punch of the violin strings during the interlude with Sarangi & Flute piece. This has to be followed with the same level of sound of PS for the charanam. But I felt as if she is singing from a well.

The song 'Aayram Karangal Neetti' is essentially a 4 male voice combined singing. I could not properly hear the voice of the base. It seems that the total synchronization of 4 voices was lost in this technology.

The song 'iravum Nilavum valarattume'. The essence of this song is the double shenai. The same problem with the twin shenai where the seamless and inter twining effect got completely lost. The horror was that in the first interlude before the charanam the shruthi got slipped. I JUST CANNOT I MEAN CANNOT TOLERATE. It was as if some body was pouring the hot melt tin in my ears. My god. Save MSV. How can he bear this?

The song 'Kannukku kulamedhu'. A good musical listener could enjoy the flute counter melody in the interlude following the Violins strings. The violins and the flute pieces notes was played correctly. But there is something called a player's signature for a particular instrument. That signature effect was missing in the flute piece. The reason could be that the flute piece could have been played in the key board and converted as in computer which is possible now. But the naturalness will be missing.

I shall continue the posting after sometime.

N Y Murali
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N Y MURALI



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 920
Location: CHENNAI

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Continuing the posting ...

But the most cruel treatment was for the song 'enna koduppan'. The old version starts with a string of violins the moment the character 'Indhiran' portrays before Karnan who moves away and his portrayal was offered to the Sun god. What a powerful music that was. But here it got completely suppresses to the ration of 10:6 and the beauty of the Sarangi piece that follows was even worse.

There is a scene which shows that Karnan laughs during the song itself for which there was no laughing sound provided in the old version. Obviously MSV and the Rangaswami would have felt that it would spoil the the beauty of the song. To strengthen their view as soon as the song is over then the same laughing is repeated followed by the dialogue by Karnan. Hence they thought that they need provide the laughing sound during the song itself. Whereas in the new version the laughing sound was provided which comes in DTS which is very hindrance to the original melody. Well one could argue that since there was a laughing scene during the song what is wrong in providing the respective effects. Well that is the fundamental difference between MSV and others.

Re-Recording:
Well some effects have been provided especially when the head gear of Arjuna falls due the Naagasthram sent by Karnan we felt as though the gear fell below our seat. This is the effect of DTS.

But most of the places since because of the levels of the sounds exceeds the dialogue voice level we could not hear the dialogue at all especially during emotional scenes.

Editing:
There was a gross negligence in one scene. When Krishna sings the song 'maranathai enni kalangidum' for the 'Geetha Charam' there is a line that says 'Kaandeebam Yezhuga' which means that let Arjuna take the bow (Kandeebam is the name of the bow which Arjuna keeps).

In the old version Arjuna takes the bow only when the line 'kandeebam yezhuga' is completed. But the new version shows Arjuna takes the bow just before the line 'kandeebam yezhuga' starts.

It is a minor mistake as far as the people who worked in the project. But it takes the whole concept of 'Geetha' which narrates that Arjuna gets rejuvenation after hearing the Geetha.

Other view
I understand that it is easy to pin point mistakes but to do a project like this involves work on mammoth proportions.

There was some consolation that I heard from some young generation like my son who is college student that the movie is a talking subject among
them. It enables us to present them a good story line. This also show that if we could offer a movie with a good story line and dedicated art work people are ready to come to theater and watch and not in their house in DVD.

To complete I can summarize the over all feeling of mine about this movie. We have cooked a 'Sambar'(which is the movie) with all vegetables(music) but there was no salt in it. (The salt is DTS). Now we have added the salt in the sambar before serving. Well the salt may mix with the sambar but would it get impregnated in the vegetable. That was the case for this movie.

N Y Murali
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Vatsan



Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:01 pm    Post subject: Sambar Reply with quote

I am sorry NYM, I dont agree with you. The current version tastes like Sambar without thuvaram paruppu and Sambar powder.
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madhuraman



Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 1226
Location: navimumbai

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:18 am    Post subject: Articles and writings ... Reply with quote

Dear Mr.Vatsan,
Instead of these one-line disagreements, why not initiate some topic, so that the silence from 'karNan's reappearance' is overtaken and we devote our time on better issues. Why this request to you is the genuine idea that something of a high profile write-up can rejuvenate the desire to write and possibly invite positive responses instead of the gloom from digitalized cacophony and the like. Trust the spirit is recognized.
Warm regards K.Raman Madurai.
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N Y MURALI



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 920
Location: CHENNAI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Friends,
Mr. Vijayakumar who has been interacting with me for quite some time is unable to write directly in his forum. Hence he requested that his views on this topic be posted. These are his personal views and not mine.

There are lot of friends who are having this problem of not getting activated and because of this we are losing good ideas getting registered in this site.

Who is going to sort out this problem?

The following are his views.

From Vijayakumar.

I recently saw the Movie Karnan in an acoustically friendly theatre of good ambiance. I looked forward to an exciting experience of viewing a classical movie. But I was dismayed to feel the music track of the movie disturbed. The orchestration on the original sound track appeared intruded and spoilt. The background score of the songs and the re-recording lost its uniqueness. I would like to place on record what I perceive and if my perception is wrong I may be excused as I do not have any first hand information.
For example the violin section seemed overlapped with electronic strings effect. It must be noted that the original violin section consisted of a group of violins (some will play the seconds) supplemented with a few violas. This is backed by cello and double bass on the bass. Viola and cello may not be perceptibly heard but its effect will be felt as we hear the violins. Trying to better that music arrangement with the strings effect of a key board is a pitiful non professional attempt. Electronic instruments can never produce the true tone and feel of that group of violins. In my opinion the key board is just a glorified toy useful for pleasure, fun and learning for recreation. It has no place in movies of the 1960s. It can at the most be accepted for a stage performance.
In the same way the flute,shenoy,Sithar, sarangy, senthur and even the rhythm section looked disturbed. To add to the woe an electric bass guitar seems to be played over the double bass in some of the songs. It ruined the majesty of pizzicato of the double bass. It was irksome.
Fortunately the voice track is kept in tact. But because of the apparent additions over the back ground music a jump or jerk is noticeable when the voice re-appears in the song after the back ground score. The result is the songs in the film have lost its original flavor.
In this DTS enhancement the tone effect of the instruments seems altered. The balance levels of various sections appear modified. In effect a brilliant and exceptional music that was admirable and unparallel is ruined. If this is what DTS enhancement is all about, it is better we don’t have it at the cost of the original beauty of the music score.
We must know that the musicians of the 1960s have sweated in non air conditioned studios (Ceiling fans will also be switched off during takes).There was no cut and paste short cut facilities. Dedicated hard work and skill was behind those live recording sessions. Their contributions should be viewed with reverence. Tampering into that creative effort is an inadvertent insult to all those legendary musicians. Technology can never replace creativity and feel. Adding unwarranted noise into the sound track of this classical film cannot be appreciated. It spoils a music that was in its best form. Why take so much of effort to ruin good music that can never be bettered?
In those days while working for a film the Music director hears the story, knows the song situations and understands what the Director of the film wants. Depending upon the situation for the song the raga for the melody is chosen. Than the MD chooses the musical instruments that will suit the story, its theme and subject. He even gives importance as to who should play the instruments as each artist has his own style and feel of rendering.

In this particular case the story is part of an epic that is believed to have occurred in the northern part of the undivided India. Therefore all the songs were based on Hindusthani ragas. Music instruments for the orchestration were also with a north Indian base. For this reason we can not find accordion, piano or the brass section in this film.
I have heard that when this film was made some fifty years back artists who can play the Hindustani instrumental music were brought to Chennai from the North to get the style and feel. The producer could have asked the music directors to economize with equally good local musicians to save production cost. But they have not done it. They gave so much of importance to style and the feel. It was considered so vital for the film. At the same time it must be noted that Even the very same artists with the same instruments may not reproduce that feel once more. Alas now just like that their contribution to the film is ruined.
Regarding the then orchestration and its arrangement we must recall that it was not just an array of instruments. Mixing and balancing of different groups of instruments with the needed effects mattered a lot. All those musicians had rigorous learning for years on their instruments and had absolute mastery over it before joining a Music Director. They will thoroughly practice their portion before recording. There needed a good co-ordination among all the musicians involved in the song or re-recording. They had to synchronize with other team members. Perseverance and patient practice as well as understanding were required in each one of them. Many of them were also highly creative. These unsung heroes have contributed a lot for enhancing the quality of rendering. It is because of that great team work coupled with enthusiasm and hard work under the able leadership of legendary music directors these immortal songs were born.
Another important aspect is the tone of the instrument. When we hear an instrument directly it sounds in one way. When it is recorded and replayed through the speakers it can sound different. Music directors and sound engineers take all this into account adjust tones, add effects like echo and balance volume levels before it is released to the public for hearing. So much of importance was given to the listeners. Fans were never taken for granted or for a ride.
In the 1960s Music Directors had to work with limited mikes and tracks for recording. Reproductions of the recorded songs were through ordinary speakers that are no match to what we have today. When most theaters had poor acoustics imagine the challenge they faced to take their music to the ear of the common man. If one weighs these limitations against their contributions their work should be treated with utmost respect. It is not fair to disturb the arrangement of those immortal songs.

If attracting younger generation with technology like DTS was the object, it could still be done it without intruding the original sound track. If the film is simply released without tampering the music track it would have been very nice. Just because a technology is ready and many tracks are available noise need not be imported into those tracks.
I am certain that the people who took all the pains to re release the film Karnan now in 2012 is well aware of all these facts. They deserve all praises. But they should know that a key board can not add value to that original music track. It is a malady that the original sound track was intruded. The original score was based on skill and creativity. Those immortal songs can never be bettered with technology driven music.
The songs of this film were heard and enjoyed over a million times by thousands and thousands of yester year fans? Even Viswanathan and Ramamurhty may hesitate to make a change to their own music once it is released. How can technicians believe that they can excel the legends? I appeal to the producers that in future if there are attempts like this it will be good to refrain from disturbing the original sound track.



Vijayakumar.



N Y Murali
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parthavi



Joined: 15 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I find disturbing is that outside our forum, there seems to have been no remarks about the distortion of music in the new version of Karnan. If some of you have come across some such comment, pl share.
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vaidymsv



Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 715
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:57 am    Post subject: COLD BLODDED MURDER TO SAY THE LEAST!!! Reply with quote

Dear All,

I wish to re-call my earlier observations under "Massacre at AVM Rajeshwari". I still stand by each & every alphabet of that inference. Now Murali & Vijayakumar have opened the eyes of many listeners by their version of inferences drawn.

I fail to understand in the very first place (as opined by one of our forum members that the new version of Karnan is an attempt to re-package the musical section to the present generation of listeneres) as to who are these novices to embark on a mission which they knew very well they would miserably fail with. The Music of Karnan is so fresh and absolutely new even as of today the 3rd of June 2012 almost 5 decades later that too, and if people fail to understand this very concept..... God save us.

The Musicians who were exclusively brought from the North by Late Mr. B.R. Pantulu & Shri. MSV were all not ordinary players but authorities in their own domain and of international repute. Even though many of the Music Directors from the North have used them, never were they given any sort of particular notes to play with but were given total freedom to play whatever they wanted to play. Even those players by virtue of the reverence they had for Shri. MSV, preferred to play what was given to them. Now, just compare the situation to which the new version stands reduced to.......Aren't our tempers running high and our blood boiling???

Karnan, I repeat without the Monumental works of Shri. MSV & Shri. TKR would have just been a good coloured documentary depicting Mahabharatha. \

It is really sad & appalling that all those responsible for mutilating this Epic Musical beyond recognition are going Scott free and are braving themselves for many such murders.....

CHEERS
MSV IS MUSIC!!!

VAIDYMSV

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