"MSV CLUB" - The Discussion Forum of MSVTimes.com

[Guest]

Dear Murali Sir,
Congratulations on starting a wonderful thread.
First of all I would like to point out that all members who frequently discuss in the forum and meet are fans of MSV and loyal to him. However all are equally broadminded to accept other greats with equal or sometimes more respect. Time and again I have come across discussions at home or office,which had very heated arguments, by more than two persons, not realizing that they are actually agreeing on a point. So I hope the heat settles and all get together again as before. I have seen many groups and finally I find this msvtimes group is the best to which I am still attached. They are Open, well informed no bias whatsoever and best of all a family of it's own.
Rasaguda Sir please do get angry it is a sign of good relationship but please do not "leave". Love will overcome anything.
All the friends in "msvtimes" I have met so far have an in depth understanding of music which is probably found in only less than 1% of public. Of these 1% in public some care a damn as to what happens.THEREFORE THE PRIORITY is to do what Murali has mentioned. That is , to approach the Govt or any legal body to prevent the possible murder of MSV/TKR music to begin with.
Everyone in our group, including the children and elderly women have spontaneously reacted with ooohhs and aahhhhs when they heard a small chord change. a veena bit or tabla roll or bongos. The list of these contributions by various instruments are endless. I was appalled when it was mentioned that the singers cannot be changed whereas the orchestra can be. Time and time again we have heard MSV mentioning that there was a team effort.
It is my opinion that people with shameless desire to make money are going to play on gullibility of the musically naive population with gimmicks. We can only pray to the almighty to protect these works.
I play the guitar and know what it is to play again with a better guitar and a new player. However great it may sound individually it can never never replace the tone of Philip. So also with the tones of the flute of Nanjappa and the tone of all the instruments that have added the flavour to the song.
In fact some songs have become famous because of the BGMs.
In the west all remakes are done with a new arrangement some of which are better but keeping the original alive for people who are in love with the original.

Recently they have redone the songs of Elvis Prestly. The voice track was available. BUT please note with the same Orchestra and better still the same back up chorus singers.
The concept that these people are dangerously toying with is akin to saying that we should put in younger people to replace parents as their voice will be better.

I have added bass to some songs and was interested to make it available with proper legal papers. However I am also very worried that it will spoil the song. If somebody does release one which I feel is bad then we can work on it. In summary remakes are dangerous.

The only info I could make out from the link is that they have done noise reduction. This is one area if you are not a trained musician one can kill the song.That is probably the reason SA RE GA MA do not indulge in this in their CD of yesteryear
There is NO WAY that any orchestra now can do any thing close to the orchestra of yesteryear . Especially with the devil of an invention the electronic keyboard.Orchestra arranging and recording is probably known to only a few who have been in the field since long ago. Most of them are neglected by those who have the money but no will or pride in our culture to sponsor programmes for rejuvenation of the live orchestra. Worse still those with the knowledge of music.
Well done msvtimes. Do not forget to pray.

[Sai Saravanan]

Dear Chakravarthy sir!
I shall begin with a prayer! May the great good God protect!
You have summarised, moderated and provided relief from such agaonising incidents of mutilating the original. Your summing up of the entire problem is beautiful. And, as you have suggested, let us pray God to bring in harmony, and the character and spirit of preservation of beauty in many.

Ragavendran Sir,
We are awaiting your next posting! You have to continue the innings again...

Regards,
Sai Saravanan

[raghavan vasudevan]

Halo,

KARNAN an all time hit film. Take away music from it and it would have
been just another movie. Music of Karnan is one of the reason for its success..

There have been many persons in different fields whose true value, creative genius have not been measured properly and their talent not been given recognition it deserves through awards etc. Sadly MSV also falls in this category.

[vaidymsv]

Dear Dr. Chakravarthy & Raghavan Vasudevan,

Great observations indeed. That the cold blooded murder of MSV's immortal music in the so called re-make of Karnan (though I haven't listened to it.....frankly just don't want to hear it either) by a select musically (read technically) literate can virtually bring down curtains on all the great work done by our Legend is simply atrocious & not acceptable.

As pointed out again by all the forum members, when a complete damage has occurred to the original scores (as claimed by the re-launch organisers) then the voices also ought to have got destroyed along with it. This was precisely my inference & at no time have I ever demeaned anyone as portrayed by Raghasudha. If the article by Dr & Raghavan has failed to evoke any positive response or an awareness, then God knows who can save us.

I would totally agree with Raghavan that Karnan minus MSV & TKR would have been a total disaster & a box office blunder to say the least!!!

Dr. Chakravarthy & Raghavan......absolute eye opener indeed!!!

MSV IS MUSIC
VAIDYMSV
_________________
vaidymsv

[parthavi]

In today's Hindu (11th March, 2012), there is an article in the magazine section on the topic of turning black and white classics into color. The article details how the attempts to colour and release the immortal black-and-white creations of John Ford, Alfred Hitchcock and David Lean wer resisted (and thwarted) by Hollywood and Dilip Kumar not encouraging colorization of any of his other films after the fiasco of the attempts made in the Bollywood in coloring Hindi classics like Mughal-e-azam, Naya daur etc

Though this write up is about converting black and white films into color, the observations and reasoning can be applied to digitization of images and music as well. Perhaps, if Sivaji had been alive , he would have resisted the attempts to tamper with classics like Karnan.

Here is the link to the article. The title 'Stop messing with the classics' delivers the message loud and clear.

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/cinema/article2977389.ece
_________________
P Rengaswami (9381409380)
MSV, Un isai kettaal puvi asainthaadum, idhu iraivan arul aagum.
http://msv-music.blogspot.in/

[Vatsan]

ragasuda, I am quite surprised that you are hurt when there has been no intention to hurt you as a NT fan. Maybe we should request Vaithy to tone down the flaring sentiments in his postings henceforth

Saw the function telecast on TV a few days back. Do not know if what was telecast was an edited / curtailed version or not, but the function looked like a Sivaji rasigar manram fan meet. The participants on stage rarely made a mention of "Karnan" the movie or Karnan the person, the poor chap that actually caused the movie to happen in the first place The creator Panthulu was relegated to the level of a Beedi shop that one passes by in an inter-city bus journey, barely a passing reference was made of him, despite his creations in a human form presenting a conspicuous presence there. His kids bear more than a striking resemblance to their erstwhile father !!! Nice to see them !!!

The movie itself is a lesson in how to portray granduer, with all peripheral details worked out to perfection meticulously, all the time keeping the artistic element intact. Kudos to Panthulu and now Kudos to the MSV-TKR duo.... without whom the colossal picture that Panthulu had planned to present would have only been an array of beautiful flowers strewn all over, without the "nucleus" of a thread that strings them together and blesses them with a place of pride, being a part of a garland, THE garland. Orchestration, tuning, the conscious thrust on implementing the Hindustani idiom and letting that flavour permeate a song set to a even a "Carnatic raga" (poi vaa magale in "Anandha Bhairavi") is no mean a feat.

In this world, where grossness is the culture, only aspects that are visibile to the naked eye are celebrated. That which subtly sparkles and infuses life into every facet of a piece of art is trodden upon insensitively. My message to MSV-TKR's of the world and other great "behind the scene" creators, "We don't deserve you. Find a better place, befitting your creative prowess, next time" !!!

My reflection portrayed above, is by no means a slur cast on Sivaji Ganesan the actor. The very expression that he portrays, as seen on the banner that decorated the backdrop in this function, is testimony enough for his unmatched dexterity...eyes portraying a heartening surprise/ realization, other parts of his irrepressible face suspended, on the verge of supporting what his eyes portrayed. In short, expressiveness that goes beyond the "gross" dictionary and forces one to look for words between the words and pages within the pages in the dictionary.

[vaidymsv]

Hi Vatsan,

Yes.....I had to write at a feverish pace when it comes to any form og neglect meted to our Master Creator. You have also observed that MSV-TKR duo have virtually been blacked out for no fault of theirs......and above all dont' they deserve a place at all???? Absolutely heinous indeed. And if my take on this were to be faulted.....so be it as this MSV "Terrorist" welcomes it!!!

Whenever there is an opportunity to hold the MSV flag high.....I shall be the first to do so and I have absolutely no regrets whatsoever because my Love, Reverence, Addiction, Surrender to my Master is totally unconditional. If the world wants to view it in a different way or call it by any new vocabulary.........it's all up to them!!!

MSV IS MUSIC!!!

VAIDYMSV
_________________
vaidymsv

[Vatsan]

Hey Vaithy, I am glad you bit the bait But honestly I dont believe your posting(s) aggravated Ragasuda. I know who but will refrain from stating it

[vaidymsv]

Hi Vatsan,

I always had that gut feeling that it could be a trap to extract more from me....Alas, that came true. By the way, your bait was concerning MSV and you know I would do anything to bite it

MSV.....WORTH THE B(W)AIT ANYDAY!!!

MSV IS MUSIC!!!
VAIDYMSV
_________________
vaidymsv

[parthavi]

Though I may be going a little off-track, I would like to record my discordant note on the screenplay of the film itself. I was amused to read in Today's Hindu(17th March, 2012), Malathi Rangarajan quoting Mrs.YGP that the film was an authentic depiction of Mahabharata. Nothing can be farther from the truth. While I can't claim to have read the original Mahabharata, I have read Rajaji's Mahabharata based on Vyasa's version and have listened to some discourses on this epic by renowned scholars.

Karna has not been portrayed as a virtuous person in Mahabharata. He was full of wickedness. Though he might have inherited this quality from his friend Dhuryodhana, he had also accentuated the wickedness of Sakuni and the Kauravas. He was the one who suggested disrobing Draupati (and the Pandavas) with the reasoning that slaves shouldn't be clothed.

He was consumed with obsessive jealousy towards Arjuna. Contrary to some distorted projections, Karna had always been inferior to Arjuna when it came to prowess in using the bow. There are at least 3 instances in the Mahabharata to prove this. He was one of those kings who failed to win the contest in the Swayamvara of Draupati, while Arjuna was able to win. When the Pandavas were in the forest, Duryodhana's men embarked on a visit to the forests to cause some trouble to the Pandavas. Karna was also a part of the entourage. In the forest, Duryodhana misbehaved with a tribal woman and got himself and his entire team overpowered and imprisoned by the tribal men. Karna was helpless here as a warrior. Learning of this, Yudhishtira asked Arjuna to get the Kauravas released. Arjuna fought with the tribes, defeated them and got his cousins (and of course his elder brother Karna!) released. much against his own will and wisdom. Again, Arjuna had scored where Karna couldn't.

The third instance was when Duryodhana went to war with the Virarta king learning that Pandavas had been living in the Virata Kingdom incognito. The Kaurava army which had Karna as on of its leading warriors was comprehensively defeated by Arjuna in his disguise of Brahannala, the charioteer of the craven Prince Uththarakumara.

Despite all this unambiguous projection of Arjuna as a superior warrior by Vyasa, several attempts have been made to show the reality in reverse. I understand that Villibharatham, the Tamil version of Mahabharata has been sympathetic towards Karna but I don't know to what extent. The late Pulavar Keeran in his discourses used to project Karna as a great hero and go to the extent of ridiculing Arjuna. I had joined issue with him by corresponding with him, questioning the authenticity of his version.

You can sympathize with Karna for the injustice done to him. You can laud him for his munificence and charitable nature. But I believe that covering up his misdeeds and portraying him as a paragon of virtues is reprehensible.

In the film Karna, Karna addresses Bhima as "Bhima, Saappaattu Rama!" I am still able to relive the hurt I felt when I listened to this dialogue when I saw the film for the first time. Bhima was a great soul. He had not only a strong physic but a noble mind, as well. The Mahabharata lists more than one occassion in which Bhima would wish that Dhuryodhana give up his wicked thoughts and they all live in peace and harmony. He was strong, brave and virtuous. He was not a glutton. This was not a scene where Karna was addressing Bhima but the leading hero Sivaji Ganesan talking down to a junior artist! This is how the dialogue writer would have conceived the scene, though Sivaji himself coldn't be faulted for this construction.

When RS Manohar narrated the story line of 'Ilankeswaran' to Rajaji and invited him to witness the play, Rajaji said, "I can't witness a presentation portraying Ravana as a good man" (This was quoted by Manohar himself in a magazine interview.) He said this even after Manohar's explaining to him that he had taken care not to show Rama in a bad light.

But in Karnan, the story line is inverted with wicked men like Karna and Dhuryodhana being shown as paragons of greatness and the victimized Pandavas as stupid and mean people. When Kattabomman was released, there was a joke that if MGR had acted in that film, he wouldn't have allowed himself to be hanged but would have decimated the entire British single-handedly. Well, a somewhat similar spectacle has been created using Sivaji.
_________________
P Rengaswami (9381409380)
MSV, Un isai kettaal puvi asainthaadum, idhu iraivan arul aagum.
http://msv-music.blogspot.in/

[S.Balaji]

Parthavi Sir,

Wish to add few more to your post. The movie shows how Karna gets killed :

Karna gets mortally wounded by Arjuna while trying to lift his chariot wheel as Arjuna shoots his arrows sitting on his chariot. Despite continuous flow of arrows , still he is alive ! So Arjuna queries Krishna " Why my arrows are not killing him ? ". For this Krishna explains " Karna's dharma is protecting him . Let me plead him for those hard earned dharma as a gift "

So, this final episode of Shri Krishna pleading for Karna's gifting of his dharma and all is ABSOLUTE FALSEHOOD. There was no such incidence at all...

Karna actually gets killed while trying to lift the wheel of his chariot . Even while standing on the ground, he continues to respond to Arjuna's arrows and even applies some strong arrows which will be so forceful that stuns Arjuna for few moments. So, Karna again uses that breather to lift the sunk wheel .. but, while doing that , his head gets severed by one of Arjuna's arrows under instructions from Krishna. Even Rajaji writes that ASPER INSTRUCTIONS FROM KRISHNA , ARUNA SENDS AN ARROW WHILE KARNA TRIES TO LIFT THE WHEEL.

I presume that Bantulu would have created this scene to glorify Karna to show that even the supreme Lord has to plead for his life !

As an aside, wish to state that this was totally against war rules ( Arjuna shooting arrows when Karna didnt have any chariot to move around and was not in a position to wage a war at that moment ) prevailed then. However, there were frequent breaking of war rules by both ends .

At various points, ( including the Draupadi disrobing which you have pointed out correctly ), it was Karna who actually instigates and provokes Duryodhana to call upon her to the Rajyasabha.....

However, I wish to add one aspect : Karna had many opportunities to kill all the 4 brothers ( except Arjuna ) but refrains from doing so as he had given a promise to Kunti that he will target Arjuna only. This was a fact .....Karna almost reaches a stage to kill Bhima but refrains due to the oath . If he had killed him then, imagine the demoralising impact it would have had on the Pandavas ...They would have infact stopped the war at that point itself..

You had mentioned about NT calling Saapppatu Rama . When Karna annihilates Bhima during the war, he asks Bhima to better stop doing war and instead go to forest ...that he is not fit for war ..... I think these comments appear in Rajaji's Vyasar Virundhu.

The words are "Foolish glutton, you do not know the science of war; why do you engage your self in battle here? Go to the jungle and fill yourself with fruits and roots and grow fat. You are a savage, not fit for kshatriya battle. Get away!" Hurling insulting taunts at him, he made the helpless Bhima burn with rage, but mindful of his word to Kunti, forbore from killing him.


The initial fights between Arjun-Karna could be CONSIDERED as small fights and not the REAL WAR . So I would rather discount those 2 instances which you had highlighted . Again , my understanding of a war is that at various stages some may emerge superior and some may fall weak .....for instance, Abimanyu , despite that penetration of the kaurava army on that fateful day , was fighting alone and could not be killed by a large group of Kauravas including some big names ....ultimately, Karna had to be instructed by Drona to cut off his bow from behind and from that point, Abimanyu loses his bow , the only support he had....Does it infer that Abimanyu was superior than even Drona or Karna ?? My answer will be NO.

Karna was regarded as a MAHARATHI by none other than Bhishma , a recognition which is being given to only great fighters and men of prowess..Imagine a situation wherein bother Bishma and Karna together fighting a war against Pandavas and how much wreakage it could have made on them !

Karna , knowing that Arjuna had learnt the art of applying divine weapons,approaches to learn from Drona ( Arjuna's Guru ) but he refuses . So, karna goes to Parasurama who teaches him everything. But that bee piercing his thigh exposes his race to his Guru and he gets cursed that the most vital moment, he will forget how to apply the divine weapons what he had learnt from Parasurama.

Karna had ( which we all know very well ) by birth, the divine armour which cannot be penetrated. Knowing this, Indira, Father of Arjuna , pleads and takes it away. However, he gifts his Vajrayudha as a quid pro quo but to use it only once. Karna was forced to use it on Gatotkacha .However, I will rather discount this special weapon as to judge a balanced fighting of a war, these extrordinary weapons need not be taken into consideration for determining the superiority.

When the final war between Karna and Arjuna reaches a sensitive stage, Karna's snake headed arrow comes at a fierce pace but Krishna tactfully pushes the chariot by few centimeteres down and saves his disciple ! What I am emphasizing here is that the divine Lord saves Arjuna. Else, he would have been a goner... again, this Nagastra could have been applied by Karna during the earlier initial fights ( that Virata parva which you had mentioned above ). Arjuna clearly had an unfair advantage ( rather divine help ) over Karna....

Going by the same logic of yours that Karna was not a good person , the Pandavas , by fraudulent and deceipt methods eliminated all the major warriors of Kauravas....right from Bhishma / Drona / Karna and finally Duryodhana, the ways and means adopted by Pandavas to kill them were absolutely against the war rules and code set by both the parties...

I would summarise the above that Karna was neither good nor a very bad guy. He also had some good qualities ( admirable traits )...

But I repeat that the NTR pleading for NT's dharma was totally an incorrect depiction....

Finally, my question to you is .......... if Arjuna was really a superior warrior, why should he kill Karna when that poor guy was trying to lift the wheel ( when he was doing another function without his bow and arrows ). He could have strongly resisted to Krishna and should have waited for Karna to resume his normal position no ? After all, Karna was the commander of the kaurava army at that time . So, some sort of respect could have been given to the head of the opposition . My interpretation is like this : The Lord himself absorbs and takes all the bad things .... So Krishna must have brainwashed Arjuna at that moment , pointing out that it was Karna who actually started the slide of Abimanyu by cutting his bow's thread from behind . This must have made Arjuna furious and forget the current position of Karna ...

[N Y MURALI]

To add further Rajaji uses the word 'Paabiyin thalaiyai seythithaan' means wicked man's head severed.

There were many instances where the war rules have been broken. Bhisma was killed by 'Arjuna' keeping in front of him ''Sigandi' a women in previous birth knowing that Bhishma wont fight.

Drona was killed when he was not meditating and not fighting.

Abhimanyu was killed by many when he was not armed.

After the war was over 'Ashwathaaman' along with 'Kirubar' kills everybody from Pandava's side while they were asleep.

Well. Karna had some good qualities but while keeping the character for the movie they have to manipulate some stories.

Even the story of depicting 'Dharumi' in Thiruvilaiyaaal is cinematic and not original.

There is a word that 'History is written by the winners'

Well the Hero is always the winner. Even after this Sivaji's fans could not bear that he was to be killed as per the story. That is the reason the movie was a commercial flop during the first release.

N Y Murali

[S.Balaji]

Mahabaratha is a complex epic . Full of wonders. Amazing expression of each individual's own perception of dharma .

The great Bhishma could have easily stopped the disrobing act . So also Drona or Kripa. However, none of them did it ! Despite this, they stood by the side of Duryodhana and gave their life fighting with full vigour. However, they laid down a condition that they will only DEFEAT the Pandavas but CANNOT KILL anyone of them as both Kauravas and Pandavas are equal to them . So, this is their way of dharma .

Karna was crowned as a king of Anga from being nowhere ( adopted son of a Charioteer ) by Duryodhana who sensed that this guy could match Arjuna in prowess. So, he also gave his heart and soul for Duryodhana . Despite knowing the fact that he is the first brother of the Pandavas, he never disclosed this to anyone except ofcourse Kunti and Krishna. He could have easily switched sides but instead fought alongside Duryodhana and gave his life !

Even Duryodhana had some positive aspects ! For example , during his tenure ( when the Pandavas were in exile ) , the country and the subjects lived happily and proper law and order was maintained ! there were no complaints at all ……. even after he gets hit fatally by Bhima on the final day and while lying on the ground, he receives floral tributes from the Devas as he had died the death of a Kshatriya , the warrior who dies in a war ! ….The unpardonable crime of this guy was 1 ) always looking for an opportunity to eliminate Pandavas and 2 ) disrobing of Draupadhi

Ultimately, for the sake of having insulted a woman, he deserved all the punishment in life . Same should be the verdict for even Bhishma or Drona or Kripa.

[Vatsan]

Watched the "re-processed" version of Karnan, the movie. The overall re-recording effect delivered was tantamount to throwing at random, ink on a beautiful portrait, realizing the mistake and trying to set it right by desperate strokes of fingers. Smudges of keyboard sounds, insensitively overriding phrases placed with careful intent by the original composer, sums it all up. The songs were meted out similar treatment with the additional attribute of certain instruments (pasted over originals) going completely off-key. Obviously, the "idea hatchers" considered only the towering screen personality of Sivaji Ganesan and the quick bucks that could be raked in. Creators behind the proverbial screen have been taken for granted.

Nowhere else in India would you have such fine works of art being treated with callous disregard such as this. A hero driven society such as our's deserves much less.

That was a vomit accruing from indigestion caused by the sound of Karnan music, being reduced to a collection of sounds.

Let us work together towards preventing the same mistreatment from being awarded to Padagotti and 1000-il oruvan, grand pieces of musical work that they are.

[vaidymsv]

Dear All,

All those who made big noises (of not worth pittance by any standards) about my spontaneous inference on how callous the people behind the re-release of the Epic Musical (to me musical definitely takes precedence over movie in every sense) Karnan (to have mutilated the music beyond recognition), have to shove their heads in shame for, what has been meted to the Musical Marvel is not only injustice of the most cruel kind but a gross insult to our ever unsung Hero of all times, Shri. Shri. MSV.

Why don't we just call it Karnan the "cacophony" in its newest form!!! What we must all remember is that in spite of the short(est) comings in the musical arena, the minds of the money makers (read Shakunis of the new era) must be celebrating every second of their quick buck tactics adopted to become rich by hook or crook.

I also wish to congratulate in advance all those who are queuing up to re-release a host of all other musical marvels (ignoring the very music that stood solid as a rock for their success) to make their coffers richer by leaps.......While we, the true champions of the Creator of this Millennium watch the horror unfold right in front of our eyes...............and remain mute spectators

As a mark of respect for the untimely demise of the original musical scores in Karnan..................................................

MSV IS MUSIC
VAIDYMSV



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vaidymsv