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club dance songs
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raghavan vasudevan



Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 65
Location: Chennai

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:54 pm    Post subject: club dance songs Reply with quote

[color=brown][/color]
In the early sixties music directors began using western instruments extensively in their compositions and music directors like Shankar jaikishan,OP Nayar, Salil chowdhry SD Burman in Hindi cinemas were first to use them.

In Tamil cinema it is none other than MSV and Ramamurthy. Mostly in the club dance/club scene situations female singers were mostly engaged but in the film Deiva Magan (1969) TMS sang " Anbulla nanbare azhagiya pengale" and some years later for the MGR starrer Kudierundha Koyil TMS sang a gem of a song "enna theriyuma"
In both these songs western instruments used were many.

I doubt any other music director had used a male voice for a club scene situation. Is not one more feather on the cap of MSV.

Dear readers kindly comment.
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ragasuda



Joined: 17 May 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are many songs composed by various music directors with male voice either solo or a duet or group.
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raghavan vasudevan



Joined: 03 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:51 am    Post subject: club dance Reply with quote

This is in reply to Rugasudha comment on the subject.

In my post I did not mention that MSV-Ramamurthy alone used male voice for club dance numbers. No I only used probably the duo used a male voice for such number for the first time. It was a doubt as I candidly mentioned.

Secondly there is no debate as to other music directors used or not used
male voice for club dance numbers.

As most of the topics have already been covered by many members I thought the present topic would be a new one that is why my posting.

I shall be more careful in selecting a topic as I have now burnt my fingers.

Perhaps no more posting on a new topic would emerge from me.
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parthavi



Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 705
Location: Chennai

PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Mr. Vasudevan,

There is no need to be upset by a simple comment. It is quite common in our forum for someone to correct or contradict an opinion or a fact mentioned by another. There is no question of your fingers being burnt.

It was refreshing that you took up a new topic. A divergent view does not make your contribution less valuable. Pl keep writing on any new topic you may think of. We do need such new topics to stir up a wider participation and interesting discussion
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MSV, Un isai kettaal puvi asainthaadum, idhu iraivan arul aagum.
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raghavan vasudevan



Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 65
Location: Chennai

PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:19 pm    Post subject: club dance Reply with quote

Dear Mr Parthavi,

Thanks for your comment which has given me a boost and
will certainly help me to reconsider my decision taken on the spur of the
moment.
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Sai Saravanan



Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 630
Location: Hyderabad

PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Friends,
This subject is an enchanting one as many facets of this have been discussed in our forum for the sheer variety and novelties brought in by our master. Being an evergreen one, it is nice to see yet another thread. In many of the very earlier discussions of this forum, there have been mention of MM scoring songs in this format, probably even before 1969, and again in male voices. We must identify those earlier ones to do a complete justice. The Hindi music directors mentioned here were all our MM's contemporaries for long, and have even shared many tunes from our master, as is well known now. That our master brought in new elements to this facet is very unique.
Thanks,
Sai Saravanan
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parthavi



Joined: 15 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Sai,

You have mentioned that some Hindi MDs have shared MSV's tunes. I have not listened to Hindi songs much and in my college days I have often been pained by sweeping comments by many of my friends that many Tamil songs (including MSV's compositions) have been copied from Hindi songs. Due to my unfamiliarity with Hindi songs, I was unable to counter this charge. After joining MSVtimes, I have learned quite a bit about the true state of affairs.

I would like you to mention at least some of the songs of MSV which have been adopted by Hindi film composers.
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raghavan vasudevan



Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 65
Location: Chennai

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:56 am    Post subject: club dance Reply with quote

Dear Friends,

In response to Mr Saravanan posting, I would like to say that MSV has not copied any Hindi tunes to my knowledge but some musical interludes has some resembance of Hindi songs. For example in the song Kadal malar kootam onru from the film Deiva Magan, the acordian piece notes closely resembles shankar Jaikishan number from the film Brhamachari - song
aajkal there mere peeche sung by Rafi and Asha bhonsale. Further in a interview MSV himself has stated that he loved musical scores of SD burman, Naushad.

Having lived in North for many years I have been listening to Hindi film songs for more than 30 years and Hindi songs of 1950, 1960s are gems which can be compared to the great compsitions of tamil film songs composed by KV Mahadevan, MSV, TK Ramamorthy, to name some.

Film music of 1950 to 1970 were great and this period is a golden era of
cine music both in Hindi and Tamil.
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Sai Saravanan



Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 630
Location: Hyderabad

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Sirs,
Thanks for the comments. Many of the songs that have resemblance to MM's songs could have sounded so due to few reasons:

1. Primarily, the type and assortment of instruments that dominated a particular period.

For example, in case of Kalyanji-Anandji brothers, they were excellent rhythm and orchestra based melody kings. For example, they loved in bringing clarinet every now and then, and combined them with either violin or any other instrument.
The very high pitched scales of Shankar-Jaikishan, and fast numbers were typical of their style.
The melody, and different types of soft and pleasant sounding instruments ruled in SD Burman's compositions. They were brilliantly accompanied by good voice support.
RD Burman was innovative with many styles starting from his father's and reached a pinnacle with all styles.
Lakshimikant-Pyarelal had some unnecessary violin pieces dominating every song unfortunately and folowed them up with some monotonous rhythm (which was followed heavily by Shankar-Ganesh).
Simple melody, Punjabi folk-mixed songs with guitar, dholak, tabla and the racy horse-hoof sounds were the hallmark of OP Nayyar.
Salil Chowdhury had great orchestration skills, and brought western influence in his songs boldly.
Therefore, whenever we listened music sounding with such combinations, we would be often reminded of hindi songs since they dominated the national scene, and were often heard over the radio.

2. The other obvious connection happens to be popular tunes from other languages, their movies and countries, mostly English. A copy of one such popular tune would invariably be demanded by a director of Hindi films or Chennai-made films. Hence the familiarity.

3. The unavoidable reason: many of our dear friends in Tamil Nadu hail Ilayaraja as the 'first' person to compose in 'Tamil style' or 'South Indian style' and as one who 'never copied'. The mass propaganda has brainwashed many youth and elders alike. We will not explore this as it is best to forget this.

4. The other reason that I think is that many music directors of other languages, especially Hindi, did not give credit to our MM. They were his friends, admirers, followers and what not. (Mr.Vali recently wrote about the kind and eager enquiries made by people like RDB, Bappi Lahiri, and Usha Khanna when he had written lyrics for their compositions in Tamil films, about MM! This appeared in Ananda Vikatan (strangely for a magazine which does not talk about MM nowadays)). But, excepting Naushad, others have largely remained mum on the credit part. For example, Jaikishen was a friend as well as an admirer of MM. He expired before Shankar, who was born in Andhra Pradesh. He even liked to play on MM's harmonium. many of his personal compositions reflect MM's style. In fact, Shankar teamed with a particular lyricist, and composed his own songs, and same with Jaikishen. But, they did so harmoniously. RD Burman had a huge MM fan with him: Mr.Vishveswaran! He had played for MM completely as his team member. SDB had always liked MM's compositions for their pleasance and harmony. The case of Naushad is well known. many orchestration pieces of Salilda resemble MM's to a great extent.

Whatever appeared in my mind regarding the comparisons, I have written with whatever humble experience I feel I have of listening to Hindi and Tamil songs. I do not know if I have written with any coherence.

Thanks,
Sai Saravanan
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Sai Saravanan



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Location: Hyderabad

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Friends,
I had forgotten to mention a few songs as examples as asked by Rengaswami sir.

You can pick up MM's tunes, familiar notes, especially pieces of string instruments when you listen to mid-70s songs of RD Burman, due to Mr.Vishveswaran's presence and influence on him. Please hear the guitar strumming in 'Tere bina jiya lage naa' by Lata and you will realise the familiarity. Again, it is well known now about his 'Yaad aarahi hai' by Amit Kumar based on Visveswaran's insistence of following 'Yaar andha nilavu'.

Listen to the famous 'Dhal gaya din' by Rafi and Asha in Humjoli composed by L-P. The tune was based on 'Parakkum pandu parakkum' and you cannot miss the familiarity.

Listen to the most famous 'Ajeeb daastan' by a young Lata and chorus, composed by S-J in Dil apna preet paraye. Many of MM's piano, guitar based songs sound similar. There were many such MM's songs appearing prior to DAPP of S-J, but never got credited, and remained as 'copied' ones from S-J. I do not now recollect any song quickly, but something like Jillendru katru vandado style with piano, trumpet and guitar. Such songs were inspired by MM, as tuned by Jaikishen.

Salilda's chorus very often took you to MM's compositions straight! Many would disagree. As some songs would have appeared after Salil's songs, one often credited him. But some earlier numbers from MM had already made an entry with that style before that with such orchestrations and chorus.

Since I do not recollect the exact songs right now (of the club dance type), I wrote only a few to reiterate as immediate examples, but, one can dig and find many more.

Thanks for the opportunity,
Sai Saravanan
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parthavi



Joined: 15 Jan 2007
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Location: Chennai

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Sai for your information in both your mails. You have provided enough substance for someone to make a detailed analysis and comparison and establish what was original and what was derived. Some one may just make a statement that yaar andha nilavu was copied from yaad aa rahi hai and many people may be carried away by this claim because of not knowing which song came first.

As you have rightly said MSV has established certain trends long time back and if someone copies that in Hindi and MSV uses the same trend in a later film, some people will claim that the MSV's later creation was copied from Hindi.

I am reminded of a recent incident. In a program in Jaya TV, Yuhi Sethu and another person were discussing the story lines of two films. Yuhi was giving the outline of an English film and the other of a Tamil film. The Tamil film was Kuzhandaiyum Dheyvamum. Yuhi said that the English film was released in 1981. The other said that Kuzhandaiyum Dheyvamum was released in 1964 and the English film was copied from that. Yuhi said that the English film was a remake of another English film of 1961!
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MSV, Un isai kettaal puvi asainthaadum, idhu iraivan arul aagum.
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raghavan vasudevan



Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 65
Location: Chennai

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:57 pm    Post subject: club dance Reply with quote

Dear Readers,

Thank you Mr Sai saravanan for a good analysis on some of Hindi film music directors mentioned by him. Notable omission were few like Madan Mohan (gazals) Ravi, Roshan (melody) Here is a person among our friends whose knowledge can be shared and to whom e can turn for discussion on Hindi film music.

MM was not just popular in TN but also in other parts of our country. My friends from AP and Karnataka have told me many times that MM style and influence can be seen in many kannada/telugu songs that were composed in mid 60 to 80.

Once I was on a official trip to Kulu Manali (HP) and in a small hotel a Punjabi (Sardar) was listening to old tamil film hits. I had gone to the hotel for a cup of tea but the songs that were played one after the other
were gems forcing me to order a thali (full meals) While paying the bill I asked the Sardar how he is so much interested in Tamil songs and he
replied that his tenant is a Tamilian who used to play tamil songs in his
radio and after listening to them he developed interest. Music need or knows no boundaries as this example would testify.
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N Y MURALI



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 920
Location: CHENNAI

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Mr. Vasudevan,
A great information which shows narrates how MM's music can cross boundaries. Can you please indicate as to when this incident happened.

Thanks,

N Y MURALI
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raghavan vasudevan



Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 65
Location: Chennai

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:39 am    Post subject: club dance Reply with quote

Dear Mr Murali,

The incident happened not long long ago but in the year 2007
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Sai Saravanan



Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 630
Location: Hyderabad

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Mr.Raghavan Vasudevan,
I am sorry to have omitted some more legends (in their own right) like C.Ramachandra (who tuned some movies in South too), Vasant Desai (who introduced Vani Jairam in Hindi, and also as a playback singer), Madan Mohan, Roshan, Ravi, Shiv-Hari (Pt.Shiv Kumar Sharma, who was also a guru of Mr.Visveswaran & Pt.hari Prasad Chaurasia), Jaidev, Sonik-Omi, Ravindra Jain (introducing Suresh Wadkar, KJYesuda, etc.), Bappi Lahiri, Rajesh Roshan (s/o Roshan),...to continue the list. Closely looking at many of them, we can still find many commonalities among them with our MM! To just give a glimpse, whenever I hear the chorus section of Shiv-Hari, and his orchestration, I invariably get reminded of our MM!

Since I did not find time, and was running out of ammunition (!), I could not continue further. Also, I was worried if this was a dedicated thread for such a topic (so that I do not start a deviation). Maybe somewhere else, we can initiate a suitable topic, and get more accurate information from stalwarts like our Professor, Mr.Murali, Mr.Raghavendran. Mr.Ram himself, (almost many of our seniors possess such interesting knowledge on these topics) and many more of our friends.
Thanks,
Sai Saravanan
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