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CHELLA KILIGALAAM PALLIYILE
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N Y MURALI



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 920
Location: CHENNAI

PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:45 pm    Post subject: CHELLA KILIGALAAM PALLIYILE Reply with quote

Dear All,
It is time to write a new posting regarding this wonderful emotional, sober but a great ‘thaalatu’ melody.

As I mentioned in my earlier postings while MSV had a distinct style of compositions during 1952-60 which had many great songs. The composition was mainly a ‘raaga based melody’ but the selection of ragas is compatible for light music composition. Example like ‘baageshri’, ‘dwajavandhi’ ‘kaanada’ ‘kaapi’ etc which the ragas themselves had sharp notes. For instance the song ‘senthamizh then mozhiyaal’ and ‘anbu manam kanindha pinne acham venduma’ have sharp notes. But I just do not want to conclude that what I am claiming is right. Because I have not heard many songs composed by him during 1952-1960. Mr. Vatsan once told me that he composed a song in his first movie ‘panam’ itself ‘yezhai nin kovilai naadinen’ sung by G K Venkatesh and M L Vasanthakumari. He even enabled me to hear the song thro his cell phone. That is a pure western type song. Just imagine that this is their first movie and the female singer is one of the great carnatic musicians. What a contrasting combination. So he must have learnt the nuances about the western music even before he set his foot for the TFM. He has composed many world styles like Russian, European, Latin, Egyptian, Parsi, Japanese, Chinese, South eastern Asia etc. but he never visited many of these places except for a few. So he has the divine gift of understanding and absorbing their style and culture with some sample song of theirs and just programmed it in his mind which would come out at an appropriate time. But what would come would be only as a general style of the respective style. There would not be any copying. It would come in his own unique style. So as he fed his computer mind with more and more world music and styles more combination came out as time passed by. That is why we would notice that he was able to produce very different style once in 5 years. (Of course this is approximate).


He became very famous from 1961 onwards from ‘paalum pazhamum’. That was when he started to exploit a new method which I call as ‘chords based melody’. This was never tried before by any MD in even in INDIA. After 5 to 6 years he developed another method. That is combining his earlier 1952-60 raga based and post 1960 new chords based melody in one composition itself. So in this method he would start a song in a particular raga and change it as it goes with sharp notes. The main difference between 1952-60 and this is that while during 1952-60 he used the sharp notes mainly during the song ‘sanghadhi’ or ‘bhruga’ during this period he used the sharp notes to convey specific emotions of the lyrics written. So the result would be even though we could identify the song in a particular raga we would notice that the raga changes immediately. Since he uses the sharp notes, naturally the harmonic chords would have variation and he would then float his composition in the changed harmonic chords route.

I have noticed many songs which he composed after 1965 onwards which had this trend. One of the raga he used to exploit in this method is ‘mohanam’. I have already made a posting about the song ‘vellimani oosaiyile’ (chapter ‘pick a song and analyse) and ‘thangathoniyile’ (chapter ‘movies’ ulagam sutrum vaaliban”) which had this style of composition.

This is the 3rd song in this method. There could be many. As I come across I would make a posting. So this itself could be a specialty of MSV.

The song situation is “ Sivaji having a orphan child care unit would one day hands over one of the children to a couple who wanted to adopt that child. The child since developed emotional attachment with Sivaji and with other children would resist and he was forcibly sent. After that the other children would be very sober. Even sivaji himself would feel the pinch of his child’s absence. At that time in order to make the other children sleep in the night he sings this ‘thaalatu’.

MSV has been challenged here with many purposes. I do not know how many earlier ‘thaalattus’ have been composed here where you have to sing the ‘thaalattu’ for many and not one child. Second how many times a singer not being a parent had to sing the 'thaalaattu'. So he and KD had a challenge at hand. And they came out in flying colors.

The song starts with a humming by TMS ‘lala lala’ in’mohanam’. Then the pallavi comes ‘chella kiligalaam palliyile’ which also is in ‘mohanam’.

The aarohanam of ‘Mohanam’ is
Sa, ri2, ga2, pa, da2, sa

The avarohanam is

Sa, da2, pa, ga2, ri2, sa

The change of tune takes off from charanam. The swarams that get mixed is ‘ma1’ and the harmonic chord now also changes naturally in ‘F major’ (I am explaining this song with reference to ‘shruthi’ 1). You can sense the change of tune and harmony during the line ‘kandrin kuralum kanni thamizhum sollum vaarthai amma amma).

Now comes the second change which is triggered by the sober emotional lines “karunai thedi alaiyum uyirgal urugum vaarthai amma amma’. The word “urugum’ which triggered the emotional setting of the tune. The swaram that get mixed are ‘da1’ during ‘alaiyum uyirgal’’ and ‘ni1’ during ‘urugum vaarthai’. These are the same changes which happened in the song ‘velli mani oosaiyilee’ but we cannot identify both as same though we would identify both the song as ‘mohana’ raga based.
The usage of ‘da1’ happens again in the next line ‘endha manadhil’. Here again this is for conveying the sober emotion but the line conveys the statement that this is not sung by a parent but by an outsider but making a statement that which ever the outsider if he has got the affection so he could be a mother. So in order to forcibly express this emotion he decided to use the ‘da1’.

The raga ‘mohanam’ is a ‘owda’ raga that means it has 5 swarams (sa, ri2, ga2, pa, da2). With the other variation in the composition (ni2, ma1, da1, ni1) the total swaram used is 9 out of available 12. While ni2 and ma1 are used for harmony the other da1 and ni1 are for conveying the emotions.

Now coming to the prelude and interludes. The prelude mainly consists of humming by TMS with a brilliant counter melody by strings. Here there is an additional swaram usage which is ma2. So the total swarams now used for the song is 10.

The first interlude is brilliant. If we notice the interlude it uses the da1 with 3 different chords based melody. Then it is followed by flute and strings combination. Then MSV’s unique whistle comes with 4 different chords based melody. Then a connection to the pallavi with string and a light piano notes. The piano is used very lightly and is used for as a filler and connector between lines.

The second interlude is even better. Here comes a new swaram variation which is ‘ga1’ rendered by flute. Then strings follow up and again the same whistle and the connector notes.

The rhythm is very soft as the song is a ‘thaalattu’. But the total composition is very rich.

We all know that this movie is a remake from Hindi movie ‘Bramachari’. I do not know how the Hindi songs were popular in the north. But the Tamil version had completely mesmerized all of us when it was released.

Regards,

N Y MURALI
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madhuraman



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:58 pm    Post subject: Pick a song and analyze Reply with quote

Dear Mr.Murali,
In your deep analysis of the course of compositional trends, you have suggested how the composer carried his genius through different stages approximately in blocks of 5 years. As hinted by you, this time-segmentation is just for our convenience and it could be kess than 4 years too in certain parts of his career. Agreed. But , your reference to the movie"pAlum pazhamum" neefs correction. Certainly 1961 opened not only new flood gates of TFM, but the perceptions of music lovers and movie producers alike from "pAva mannippu"[ not "pAlum pazhamum"].By the time "pAlum pazhamum" came VR had ebtrenched themselves as grand MDs of south. History has it that Lata Mangeshkar fell flat by the composition 'athAn en athAn'. In fact, she collected a 16mm copy of the movie from AVM chettiar. Another north Indian actor who came down to Madras for a movie- shooting, knocked at the doors of P.Susheela's house and prostrated before her in awe and respect for her "pAva mannippu" song. This he did at the dead of the night, as he had been in a movie work and had just a few hours before return flight to Mumbai. You can infer how "pAva mannippu's" music stormed kollywood, Bollywood and everyother wood [I mean even the music-deaf minds] across the nation. Of course " pAlum pazhamum" had rich encomium from no less a doyen of the stature of Naushad who scored for the Hindi version. So. "pAva mannippu" was a music milestone by every reckoning.
Warm regards. Prof.K.Raman Madurai
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madhuraman



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Pick a song and analyze Reply with quote

[quote="madhuraman"]Dear Mr.Murali,
In your deep analysis of the course of compositional trends, you have suggested how the composer carried his genius through different stages approximately in blocks of 5 years. As hinted by you, this time-segmentation is just for our convenience and it could be kess than 4 years too in certain parts of his career. Agreed. But , your reference to the movie"pAlum pazhamum" needs correction. Certainly 1961 opened not only new flood gates of TFM, but the perceptions of music lovers and movie producers alike from "pAva mannippu"[ not "pAlum pazhamum"].By the time "pAlum pazhamum" came, V R had entrenched themselves as grand MDs of south. History has it that Lata Mangeshkar fell flat by the composition 'athAn en athAn'. In fact, she collected a 16mm copy of the movie from AVM chettiar. Another north Indian actor who came down to Madras for a movie- shooting, knocked at the doors of P.Susheela's house and prostrated before her in awe and respect for her "pAva mannippu" song. This he did at the dead of the night,[11pm] as he had been in a movie work and had just a few hours before return flight to Mumbai. You can infer how "pAva mannippu's" music stormed kollywood, Bollywood and every other wood [I mean even the music-deaf minds] across the nation. Of course " pAlum pazhamum" [1963] had rich encomium from no less a doyen of the stature of Naushad who scored for the Hindi version. So. "pAva mannippu" was a music milestone by every reckoning.
Warm regards. Prof.K.Raman Madurai[/quote]
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N Y MURALI



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 920
Location: CHENNAI

PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Prof,

Thanks for your reply. I refered 'pallum pazhamum' because in the book I have 'mellisai mannargal pattu payanam' by Shri Vamanan this movie comes first in the list during 1961 and 'paava mannippu' came second. Infact there were 5 movies composed by VR in 1961 which is given in the following order 'bhagyalakshmi', 'paasa malar', 'paalum pazhamum' , 'paava mannippu' and 'manappandal'.

Though 'paasa malar' and 'bhagyalakshmi' had great songs with respect to the new method I was referring this has few songs whereas 'paalum pazhamum' and 'paava mannippu' had many songs in chords based melody.

But I noticed that vaamanan's information are not 100% accurate and I give more weightage to your information when it comes to VR TFM history

Going by your information that how Lata Mnageshkar and other Hindi movie personalities have reacted, it shows that his new style adopted by
him had an unique fragrance and flair which spread all across India.

Regrds,

N Y MURALI
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madhuraman



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Posts: 1226
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:00 pm    Post subject: Pick a song and analyze Reply with quote

Dear Mr.Murali,
Going by your references of the chronology of movies, I can not dispute the year of the arrival of movies. But, while considering land mark movies based on songs, "pAva mannippu" had quite a few novelties including communal amity. Besides, the movie makers [perhaps for the first time for a tamil movie] announced a contest for rating the songs of "pAva mannippu". It was on these that I had to vote for "p m" over that of others. I do not have the musical insight to choose the methodology of composition. Therefore I go by the impact of songs on me as a listener. Thank you for all the clarification.
Warm regards Prof.K.Raman Madurai.
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parthavi



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was 10, when Paava Mannippu was released. I had developed an interest in reading in my early years and would read anything that would hold my interest. Thus I read quite a bit about Paava Mannippu songs in the newspapers and the magazines. Though I would have heard some film songs here and there before that time, this was the first time I was interested to know all the songs of a particular film. I vividly remember how I found all the songs of this film pleasing to the ears. I also read the advertisement for the contest and started doing my own ranking. To me, Kaalangalil aval vasantham seemed to be number 1, but I was unable to rank the other songs. I also heard my elders discussing the songs of this film and the contest. I also distinctly remember seeing a huge ad (perhaps an half-page ad) for the film Paava Mabbippu with the credits" Sangeetham: Viswananthan Ramamurthy" along with names of the Director etc. That was also the first occasion I heard the name of this magic-making duo.

So as Professor Raman has explained in detail, it was Paava Mannippu that first made a large number of people sit up and notice the inconspicuous musical masters MSV and TKR. This was caused by the refreshingly novel music score of this film. The publicity given by the producers to the songs also helped spread the fire rapidly.
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madhuraman



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:05 am    Post subject: Pick a song and analyze Reply with quote

Dear Dr. Shankar,
Nice of you to have placed the chronology of the'pa' series movies. As you have rightly pegged it, "Pathi Bhakthi" was a very early movie of 1958 or so, that proclaimed the prowess of V R as MDs who can handle themes and tunes extremely well. Any one talking of the genre of Fusion music must listen to the song 'rock rock rock in which Aadinar angE -a carnatic tune is seamlessly fused with a matching orchestration of right instruments- mind you way back a clear 50 years ago it was a fusion without confusion. The was rendered by One Mr.Sundaram and JP Chandrababu. It was since then that people perceived a fresh approach in TFM and later KA Kannadasan took some efforts to put VR on a solid pedestal giving them the right openings and occasions to musically flourish. Besides our analyzing the lyric / music , such interesting memories help us to recall the quality fight among the grand MDs of that era in which VR emerged emphatic by the sheer variety and bold orchestration using instruments, the names of which were unknown to the musically sensitive audience. What matters at this juncture for us to grab and retain in mind is, every other MD did employ the same instruments [ demand from movie-makers ] for embellishing the songs. So to say in many others' works, Guitar, Accordion and the Bongo were raising their heads more to show themselves up.But, MSV [ I prefer to keep out R here] with his sense of precision to note, syllable and octave gave orchestral pieces that so very ably 'went into a song' without jarring a bit any where. In fact, one has to have several repeats to locate instruments along the course of song in MSV compositions. Such is the blending that gives the overall majesty to his works.
Movies " sivandha maNN" "nam nAdu" "U S V" "ninaithAle inikkum"were just some cases to remember for the grandeur of orchestration. There are innumerable others. Thanks for the opportunity.
Warm regards Prof.K.Raman Madurai.
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Ramesh.P



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GOD only can answer What made MSV to compose this tune.
ENGA MAMA ORU THENZAI MAZHAI. Unique orchestra and each song is different.

regards
ramesh
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tvsankar



Joined: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 229

PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Murali,
Ungaloda post ellam informative aga iruku.

Niraiya time padikanam. Just padichen nu reply
panna isham ilai.

Ennoda reqeust - single song ilai.

padam padamaga than reqeust iruku,

Ippodhaiku

1. Santhi Nilaiyam
2. Engirundho VAndhal

indha padathu anaithu pataiyum
unga writings la padika asai padugiren...

with Love,
usha Sankar.
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N Y MURALI



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 920
Location: CHENNAI

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEAR MAM USHA SANKAR,

I take no credit for anything for the writing. All the credit goes to Shri MSV who reveals so much of emotion in his composition. What ever that comes to my mind no sorry. My heart I share with you all.

Well. To write about songs of two movies!. Let us take one by one Please.
I am thinking about the song 'naan unnai azhaikkavillai'. Give me some time for me to feel wholeheartadely so that I can share with you how that sober, sorrowful master peice got created by the COMPOSING GENIUS.

REGARDS,

N Y MURALI
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tvsankar



Joined: 24 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Murali,
Thanks a lot for the response.


"Well. To write about songs of two movies!. Let us take one by one Please.
I am thinking about the song 'naan unnai azhaikkavillai'. Give me some time for me to feel wholeheartadely so that I can share with you how that sober, sorrowful master peice got created by the COMPOSING GENIUS. "

Engirundho vandhal - indha padathai ninaithalae.,

"naan uNnai azhaikavillai" dhan mudhalil nyabgam varum.

So I understood your Values about this song.Pl take your own time.

Padalai ezhudhara - ungaluku pidithu irukanam.Adhu miga mukkiyam ena
ninaikiren.
Appodhu dhan Write up Excellent aga irukum....



matrum oru GEM from this film Orae padal unnai azhaikukm
Undhan ullam
ennai ninaikum......

Really , indha padalai ellam unarvadharku kadavul konjam
arivai koduthu irukar.
Adharkaga kadavuluku nichayam Nanriyai solla vendum ena
ninaithu kolven...

Porumaiyudan kaathirukiren.No prob.

With Love,
Usha Sankar.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Mr Murali,
Great observation about change of feel in a song. Every new entrant who makes it big has offered something different. I have always felt that this style you described was the hallmark of MSV.
In western music theory the scales are limited to mainly Major and Minor. The third note being "sharper" in the Major as you mentioned.
It is considered as "flat" in the western concept, making the Major into Minor.
When the sixth note from the Major [Sankarabaranam] is taken as a "Tonic" [First note of the scale or Raga] and continued as a seven note raga or scale it becomes Minor of that "Sankarabaranam'. Hence it is called a "RELATIVE" Minor.
The song can change from a tune based on the "Major" to it's "relative minor". However there are rules to be followed to give a smooth feeling. It would not be right to dilute the topic by explaining that now.

When the Tonic of "Sankarabaranam" is played to sound like a "Minor" for Example "Keeravani" or" Maya moula Gowda"[ please accept my apology for wrong spelling]. it is called a "PARALLEL" Minor.
MSV has used both the variants[ Relative as well as parallel] in hundreds of songs. Sometimes even for one line depending on the mood and meaning of that phrase.
The song could start on Major or Minor and move into its various changes.

I personally think MSV is a Genius if not a child prodigy. In works of such people you cannot explain their methodology.
He was born with the theory of Music from all over the world and therefore I do not think he composes based on Raga or Chords.

Tunes just come from his mind and we give it a theoretical explanation. Others just marvel without knowing any thing about the theory of music.

It would be great if he wrote his own book on theory of composition.
But humble and Genius that he is I am sure the answer for a request of such nature would be. " I am sorry everything is from God".

Only those who have tried composing ,based on years of learning and found it is not possible will understand that statement.
I have spoken to and seen the helplessness of some of the very talented and knowledgeable artists. Hope to hear more from you soon.

Regards to all,
Chakravarthy.
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N Y MURALI



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 920
Location: CHENNAI

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Mr. Chankravarthy,
Thanks for the posting. I also refine my theory about MSV's composition that is it is neither raga based or chrods progression based. It is a mixture of every thing but when the tune comes it is unique and only MSV'S.

But one thing is certain is that somes times it is raga and some times the chords progression gives him the inspiration to try out the melody piece.

Example pl see the way the song 'En Kelvikeena badhil' song's pallavi is structerd. It is a case of three melody piece comes one by one in a descending order.
The first line 'en kelvikkenna badhil' ends with 'sa' The flow of notes goes through 'sa-ga1-pa-sa-sa-sa'. The chord being 'c minor' (for playing in natural scale)

The second line 'un parvaikenna porul' ends with 'ni1'. The notes being 'ri2'-ga1-ma1-ga1-ni1-ni1-ni1. The chord being b flat.

The third line 'manamaalaikenna vazhi' ends with 'da1'. The notes being 'sa-ri2-ga2-sa-da1-da1-da1'

The fourth line is the ending style with the notes 'da1-sa-ni2-ni2-ni2'
Here the other 'ni2' is used as a sharp note and the chord 'g' major being used to give the sharp effect.

I am sugessting this as a case study as how he beuilt the structure of the pallavi.

However the charanam does not go in the progreesion. If that be the case then MSV's music would have become monotonous and single dimesion.

However if you apply the raga rule then we could call this raga 'Nada bhairavi' with the mix of 'annya swaram' 'ni2'.

MSV has almost applied the same method for the song 'kannamma' song in 'Visva Thulasi' exception being for the first line ends with 'ni2'.

Try some more songs like 'Kuyilaaga naan irunthenna' whih is also the descendign chords progreesion inspiration but with a differnt chord.

The song 'Thedinen Vandhadhu' is a an example where MSV tries out a different combination. Here the frist lien ends with 'sa' the second line ends with 'ni1' liek the decednign flow but surprising takes the third line upward and ends with 'ma1'. The notes of the chord are played a thew counter melody for each line.

So like you said it is very difficult to bracket his composig style with any known style. After him there has been a new style which is called MSV;S style. But I am sure that he gets inspiration from extra intelligence not avialable to us.

Regards,

N Y MURALI
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