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VELLI KINNAM THAAN THANGA KAIKALIL - "Rhythemic Excelle

 
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S.SAMPAT
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:22 am    Post subject: VELLI KINNAM THAAN THANGA KAIKALIL - "Rhythemic Excelle Reply with quote

Dear Friends and Lovers of MSV around the world,

The song I have picked up for analysis is "Velli Kinnam Thaan" from Uyarndha Manithan. I am not Balaji to narrate the story line in a musical way and after all I am Sampat!

Vali has written the lyrics and what a lyrics!.

The Pallavi

Velli Kinnam Thaan
Thanga Kaikalil
Muthu Punnagai
Andha Kankalil

Vairachilai Thaan
Endhan Pakkathil
"

is just a "Varnanai" of the girl". Sivaji would not be suggestive of anything at this stage. (What a thinking of the Director S.Thirulogachandar!!!).

Only at the end of the song after making Vanishree listening the two charanams [Vanishree would approve the charanam with a humming (P.Suseela)], Sivaji would say what he wants by saying "Thottu Kalandhal Adhuthann Sugam" .
What a sugamana song!!

Hats off to Sri.TMS for the sheer Kambhiram and Melody. SPB once told that nobody could match the great TMS. I wish somebody launch a similar site of the giant TMS.

Now to the specialities and technicalities of the song.

1. No lyrics for P.Susheela and only humming.

2. Normally in most of the songs after every charanam Pallavi is
repeated. But in this song after the first Charanam, Pallavi is
repeated only in humming and not in lyrics. It is quiet unique and
suggesting us that vanishree is yielding gradually with a sense of
happiness.


3. At the end, when Pallavi is repeated by TMS additional line
"Thottu Kalandhal Adhuthan Sugam" is added as explained earlier.
This is also unique.


4. The song have all the LUDES!! viz Prelude, Interlude, Post lude.


Now to technicalities.

Brova!!! What a genius is our master. You will be simply flabbergasted.

Before getting into the details, I want the lovers of MSV to understand
certain aspect of rythm. (This is only for the benefit of those who have not been fortunate to learn our system of Carnatic Music).People who know this can skip this.

I am taking our system of rythm for the better understanding.


There are 5 nadais in our system (gait) as follows:

1. Thisram (3) - Tha Ki Ta

2. Chathusram (4) - Tha Ka Dhi Mi

3. Kandam (5) - Tha Ka Tha Ki Ta

4. Misram (7) - Tha Ki Ta Tha Ka Dhi Mi

5. Sangirnam (9) - Tha Ka Dhi Mi Tha Ka Tha Ki Ta

But effectively it is only (4/4) and (3/4) as other nadais can be derived as a combination of either (3/4) or (4/4) or both.


Like the above there are 5 Jathis in our system of Thalas. I will restrict only to Thisra Jathi and Chatusra Jathi for this song.

(e-g) Our Adhi Talam is Chatusra Jathi Tirputa Thalam

Finger couting - 4( Jathi depends on this no) , Thati thiruppudal (Slap and turn) - 2,again Thatti thiruppdal - 2 making the total beat 8 (Aksharam)

In Chatusra Nadai, each beat has 4 counts . Therefore for Adhi Talam it is 32 counts (8 beat * 4 counts/ beat)

Now, Thisra Jathi Tirputa Thala has 7 beats (Aksharam) with

Counting fingers - 3, Thatti thiruppudal- 2 and again 2 makng it 7.

The same way Khanda Jathi Tirputa Thala has 9 beat (Aksharam) with

Counting fingers - 5, Thatti thiruppudal- 2 and again 2 making it 9.

As such, Thisra Jathi Tirputa Thala (7) and Khanda Jathi Tiruputa Thala (9) in Thisra Nadai will have 3 counts for each beat (Aksharam)


That makes

Thisra Jathi Tiruputa Thalam (Tisra nadai ) - 21 counts (7 beat * 3 counts / beat)
Kanda Jathi Tiruputa Thalam (Tisra nadai) - 27 counts (9 beat * 3 counts/beat)

-----
Total 48 counts
-----


Enough!!

Now to the song.

This song is a combination Tisram (3/4) and Chatusram (4/4) - Again unique.

The song is composed in Eb major. (As there is minor variation in the actual pitch in which the song is composed and the Eb of the Keyboard, we could only be suggestive of the chords). The chords that could be used are the Primary chords of Eb Major and they are Eb/Ab/Bb/Bb7.

But the amazing thing is the rythmic pattern.


First the prelude is in Chatustra Nadai. That is one cycle of Adhi Thalam (8 beats)

Then the Pallavi is in Tisra nadai .


Velli Kinnam Thaan

Thanga Kaikali - 48 counts (One cycle of Adhi Thalam - 6 counts/
beat * 8 beats)

But the trick is amazing !! (Iyyo!!! Genius!!!)

Velli Kinnam Thaan - 21 counts

Thanga kaikalil - 27 counts

----
48 counts
----

If u want "Velli Kinnam Thaan " and Thanga Kaikalil "
to complete in one cycle each, you can use the two thalas I have
explained above. Hence


Velli Kinnam Thaan - Thisra Jathi Tiruputa Thalam (Tisra Nadai) - 21
Thanga Kaikali - Kanda Jathi Tiruputa Thalam (Tisra Nadai) - 27
and 21+27 = 48 counts



Hence a combination of two talas for just each "two lines" of a pallavi. Can anyone think like this ?? A billion dollor question!!!

For the pallavi the rythmic background is in first tempo. (only Brush) This pattern continues till the end of the pallavi "Endan Pakkathil"

(Note: 48 is divisible by 4. Hence this pallavi can be tried even in Chatsra Nadai also!!!!! For eg Rupakam you can try. But u can not have the completion of cycle for each line and u need great control of rythm)


Then there is shift of rythm in the interlude to Chatusra Nadai

First interlude in Violin immediately after "Endan Pakkathil" is


3 beat(12 counts - Say Tha Ka Dhi Mi - in first speed )

Following interlude is little lengthy with the combination of sitar,Flute,violin and accordian for

21 beats ( 168 counts - Say Tha Ka Dhi Mi Tha Ka Dhi Mi in second speed
The tempo is very very slightly faster)

After the interlude comes the First charanam in Chatustra Nadai.

First two lines of the Charanam are sung once and the last two lines of the charanam are sung twice (Same pattern is followed for Second charanam also).

First three lines will have the humming of P.Susheela with the voice of TMS of overlapping for the eduppu of the next line. These days overlapping of one voice over the another is very very simple with computer technology and tracks. But in those days it is very very very difficult. You must have great control of sruthi. For the repetition of the 3rd line and 4th line no humming.

Then after a slight pause, again a shift in Tisra nadai (Tistra nadai quite visible) - " Innum Sollavo Inbam Allavo" (What a melody) . This is followed by humming of Pallavi by PS (without lyrics) in Tisra nadai. (7 and 9 Combination as explained above). And the rythm in the background will be in second speed as Tha Ka Tha Ka Dhi Mi in Bangos(A contrast from the pallavi at the beginning which has brush as accompaniment in first tempo) . What a control of the player of Bangos.

Second interlude with flute, Accordian and Sitar in Chatusra Nadai

10 beat (80 counts - Say Tha Ka Dhi Mi Tha Ka Dhi Mi in second speed)

Then the Same pattern of First charanam is followed for the next charanam also. What a line in Kalathai Nillendru sonna mayam Enna?". What a meaning!!!

Then again a shift to Tisra nadai " Innum Sollavo Inbam Allavo" and this is followed by the pallavi by TMS( now lyrics) with addition of the line "Thottu Kalandal Adhuthan Sugam" with humming of PS along the length of the pallavi. Again both TMS and PS will hum the pallavi with the backgroud of trumpet(Sax?). and a post lude of trumpet.

Another specility is Velli Kinnam Thaan
does not bring your lips together and Swaras for the line is Sa ni dha ga Gaa ( only at the end of than Ma is touched) also do not bring your lips either. From Prelude to Velli Kinnam - No percussion instrument is used. From Thaan, brush is used in the Drum upto the end of the pallavi. The interlude would have bangos.

Tabla is used only in the Charanams.

What a genius.I am really short of words.

As I could play little of Mirudhangam, I am able to appreciate the song with a sense of admiration to the great composer. Mirudhangist like Ram could appreciate better than me.


Regards.
Sampat
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Ram
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Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 1160

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow Sampath!

What an analysis! Your explanation of "Nadai" is a rhythm lesson for everyone. Wonderful posting!!!

Am amazed at your knowledge and sense of music. Be it chords, rhythms, swaram, ragam etc.

Please come up with many more posts, which will be lessons and information for future centuries.

MSVTimes applauds all your efforts!
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irenehastings
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mr. s. sampat, amazing.

wonderful notations about the song.

my god

oru song compossinla ivlo vishayangal irukka. surprising.

you have properly studied music, thatswhy you can analyse this much briefly. your notations will definitely help for the musical students.

keep it up.

inge ovvoruvarum ezuvadhai padikumbothu romba ekkama irukku.

namaku idhu madhiriyellam ezudha theriyalaiyenu.

but here i am gaining more knowledge about msv sir songs.
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S.SAMPAT
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Ram and irenehastings,

Thank u very much. Only this kind of encouragement gives enthusiam to write more. Ram, "Velli Kinna Thaan... Thanga Kaikalil " how deceptive is the nadai!! You can appreciate it better being a mrudhangist. It was not easy for me to find that Velli Kinnam Thaan is 21 counts and Thanga Kaikalil is 27 counts. I really broke my head. If u want each line to finish with sama eduppu in one cycle, it is easy with the way I told ie 7 beats and 9 beats in tisra nadai alternately. You can also use Adhi Talam with 6 counts/beat making it 48 counts. But u will not have each line completed in single cycle of rhythm. Thank u very much for ur compliment.

Mr.irenehastingsji, do not feel for it. U have ears for good music that is more than sufficient. The kind inputs we give is only for the better understanding of the genius. Thank u very much for your appreciation.

regards
Sampat
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S.Balaji
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Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 772

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
First three lines will have the humming of P.Susheela with the voice of TMS of overlapping for the eduppu of the next line. These days overlapping of one voice over the another is very very simple with computer technology and tracks. But in those days it is very very very difficult. You must have great control of sruthi. For the repetition of the 3rd line and 4th line no humming


Mr. Sampath,

Please note that first I am a big fan of you the day I saw your post on Rajavin parvai !

Naan verum rasigan mattume .

I have classified you as a TECHINICAL EXPERT Very Happy

Its most important today that we bring to light the greatness of MSV to the next generation which is being flooded with fusion .

You are on dot as regards the OVERLAPPING Very Happy I continue to wonder how the little master had applied all the techniques way back Shocked when the technology was not that advanced !

Vellikinnam dhaan is one of my all time Nadigar thilagam - tms - msv favourites Smile

You are absolutely right. PS is being used as a passive support and how splendidly she complements !

Great personalities & scintillating music of yesteryears

Pl take your own time but come up with gems like this.

I request our moderators to allocate a separate block for Mr. Sampah titling TECHNICAL ANALYSIS / NUANCES Very Happy Idea
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S.Balaji
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Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 772

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
Sa ni dha ga Gaa


First the prelude is in Chatustra Nadai. That is one cycle of Adhi Thalam (8 beats)

Then the Pallavi is in Tisra nadai .


Velli Kinnam Thaan

Thanga Kaikali - 48 counts (One cycle of Adhi Thalam - 6 counts/
beat * 8 beats)
But the trick is amazing !! (Iyyo!!! Genius!!!)

Velli Kinnam Thaan - 21 counts

Thanga kaikalil - 27 counts

----
48 counts
----
If u want "Velli Kinnam Thaan " and Thanga Kaikalil "
to complete in one cycle each, you can use the two thalas I have
explained above.


Your analysis is indeed a research material Very Happy Great going !

Now can I can expect from Ram also pls Smile
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S.SAMPAT
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Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 234
Location: CHENNAI

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Balaji,

Thank u very much for ur compliment. I am also expecting response from our good old friends Mr.Venu Soundararajan and Ms.Saradha Prakash. I hope they would also reply.

Thank u very much once again

regards
Sampat
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tvsankar
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Joined: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 229

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Sampat,

Your post about this song is very amazing.

About Thalam - Your writings are educated me.I know little bit about the thalam.In your post, i understand it nicely.
Thank you very much for your Narration...

Oru chinna request..

Iyarkai ennum ilaiya kanni from Santhi Nilaiyam

Indha padalai ungaludaiya view il solla mudiyuma?

3 tyeps of Thalam - i feel in this song.Beautiful beat. I love this song so much...

With Love,
Usha Sankar.
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Vatsan
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Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:23 pm    Post subject: Great Analysis Reply with quote

Sampat,
enna solvathu...ethai solvathu ethai viduvathu.....
Great analysis mate !!!! needuzhi vAzhga...from the bottom of my heart. Glad to be able to resonate with like-minded "MSV mad" public.

kadalil uLLa neer thuLigaLai eNNi vidalAm....AnAl MSV-yin thALa jAlangaL eNNikkayil adangA....

What about the disguised 3 beat cycle in athO antha paravai pOla vAzha vENdum? Most people who listen to it , especially after the song is over may call it a swing beat, but it is a fast waltz !!!!

What about "thEdi varum deiva sugam" ? Especially in the charanams you wonder how TMS and PS managed to sing in accordance with the beats. Please listen to this song in www.musicindiaonline.com Search for the movie "nimirnthu nil" pAdal kEtta pinbu nimirnthu nindru viduveergaL.
Incredible composition.

ondra iranda eduthhu solla...ethai viduvathu ethai patri ezhuthuvathu endru theriyavillai.....

Little man with the biggest composing heart....

kaN pOna pOkkilE...sounds like waltz to us but it is not. Disguised raggae at several points.

It is quite astounding to note that a man could do so much amidst gyAna soonyams who crowded around him asking him to compose one tune after another for the same set of lyrics...for achieving "quality". Wonder what would have happended to all those lost tunes. If MSV could recollect them, I could gladly do a read/write onto my system from his and become a composer, all set to create a new trend.
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Vatsan
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Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:29 pm    Post subject: A Query Reply with quote

Sampat,
Would love you to cover "nAn andri yAr varuvAr" from mAlai itta mangai. The pallavi is set to Abhogi and I think the charanam is a grahabedam Valaji. Please elucidate further on this.

His raagmaaligas...."thendralil Adum koonthalai kaNdEn"....
starts of like Arabhi (correct me if I am wrong)...the first charanam is set to the same scale, second is in karaharapriya..but wait except the repetition of the last line, it is in arbhi, to ensure a seamless path back to pallavi. Same with the 3rd charanam which is in charukesi.
This man's innovations transcend all that his predecessors and successors have done.
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S.Balaji
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Vatsan & Sampath

I suggest you both create a separate block for CARNATIC RAGAS APPLIED BY MSV

It would be a great learning experience for all of us Smile

I thought the entire Naan andri yaar varuvaar is Aarabi

For 100% karahapriya, I think we should listen to Madhavi pon mayilaal probably !
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Srinivass NV
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Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 86
Location: Hosur

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:45 am    Post subject: Dear Sampath,Balaji Reply with quote

I am in the process of going through all the Postings of everyone; Yours too... I am in the midst of a feeling which one gets when walking through the "Prakaarams" of a Vibrant Temple... Each pillar, each Deity, is marvellous...with lot of details.

If one could travel back along the TIME AXIS, it would be possible to see hundreds of great Artists working on meticulously, to give these Sculptures to this present Generation. It would be surprisingly amazing to realize now,... We are able to identify the Almighty through these Temples, only because of the selfless contributions from those Artists...

Sampath,Balaji...each Pillar you are Sculpting now would help innumerable descendants to Identify World's greatest Musical Representation for all the future to come...

People of your Calibre and Taste are extremely rare and hence so Precious to this Society... Trust me... I am not uttering this to flatter you... Whenever I come across (ofcourse rarely) people like you, onething which comes to my memory is the Grand Old Tamil Poetry :

"Aridhu Aridhu Maanidaraai Pirathhal Aridhu..."

To me, even if one gets a chance to be born as a Human, it is Rare to get a Fragnance of Music embedded into one's Self. Even if that happens, it is even more Rare to be blessed with an access to TAMIL SONGS or atleast TAMIL... Even if that happens, it is Rarer to taste the eternal Nectar : MSV. It is Rarest on the Earth to understand and appreciate MSV and above all, Technically explain the same for other's benefit.

Take your Time...and carryon Sculpting Pillar to Pillar...Deity to Deity...
Admirers like me will stand by your side... and make all attempts to preserve the Sculptures for our Generations to come.

All the very best...

Admiringly yours

NVS
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vaidymsv
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Joined: 08 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:32 am    Post subject: TREASURE HOUSE! Reply with quote

Hi Sampath, Balaji, Usha, Vatsan, & the latest Typhoon to hit MSVTIMES.COM- NVS,
I am really thrilled to see the in-depth analysis of all of you and am in the process of learning (am an absolute novice as far as technicality is concerned but have a huge song bank of our Master Creator with which I spend every moment of my life) the greatness of each song as analysed / perceived by you all. Left to me I am happy just with My Moments of MSV and there's nothing else that I long for in my life. I am so lucky and so is our site in particular, to have discovered the rarest of rare gems in all of you. MSVTIMES.COM surely has achieved the status of becoming a TREASURE HOUSE. May you all continue with your analysis each day and enthrall all of us.

LET'S MAKE MSVTIMES.COM, THE MOST HAPPENING SITE IN THE WORLD
LONG LIVE MSV!!!

MSV SCORES!!!
LOVE
VAIDY
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P. Sankar
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Joined: 03 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(What a thinking of the Director S.Thirulogachandar!!!).

Dear Sampat Sir,
As You have mentioned , the Director of the famous film "Uyarntha Manithan" is not ShriThirulogachandar, but it is from the duo "Krishnan-Panju".

P. Sankar.
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