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Vatsan
The Fervent


Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:37 pm    Post subject: Resp. Reply with quote

Sampath and NYM, let me add my few pennies worth in this intensely technical topic. In this relative world which is replete with perspectives i.e. various angles through which an absolute truth is viewed, discernment of aadhaara "Sa" in a film song (read light music) is the mother of all relative phenomena. My take on this is pretty simple, we tend to discern a raaga in a film song or in general, any song based on how we have "received" and registered our earlier skirmishes with the raaga. That is pure play mental conditioning which comes into play when we set about determining the raaga of a song. For instance I remember referring to "namma ooru singari" as Sudha Dhanyasi based, in tfmpage.com only because when I hummed the song before making that particular post, it showed flashes of "subramanyena" sung by Maharajapuram Santhanam. A friend of mine responded to me with a friendly rebuttal calling it as Hindolam but yet I found no reason to dump my finding as hogwash and to consider my friend's as a gospel truth, it is a matter which window you took a peek at the song through. Simple !!!!
So how do we go about with this business ? Do we consider the starting chord ? Emphatically no…because the pitch or the sruthi a song is presented in, in films is based on the mood or the mix of sentiments to be conveyed. So that goes out of the window hook, line and sinker. There is no thanpoora to hold onto as a crutch as well. Till the composer himself is approached in this regard we have to float around as people viewing the sun wearing coloured glasses and attributing a colour to the sun based on the colour of the sun glasses in question !!!!
If escalating the issue to the composer is out of question, one may take into consideration the composer’s instincts or the prevailing composing “habits” at the point in time of the song conception. For instance, “mAlai pozhuthin mayakkathhilE” is mapped to Chandrakauns by all and sundry, on and off TV channels. Let me offer my perspective in this regard. I know that MSV cannot be spoken to in this regard considering his penchant for stonewalling all attempts to travel into his own compositions with him. My next option would be to consider the prevalent practice during the late 50s and early 60s to musically portray inebriation, intoxication, swirled senses or even the case of the viles of a woman enticing a man to fall into her “lap” trap. Check out “mannava vA vA magizha vA” a case of a woman inviting her partner with lasciviousness that shows (in my perspective) reverse chromatic “Pa-Ma2” movement. MSV himself used the “Sa ga PA-mA2” movement in “ninaithhAl sirippu varum “ in the late 60s for a woman tipsy with an aphrodisiac and thus stumbling around. Once again, considering the prevalent composing predilection of those days and the composer’s individual instincts, I would start “mAlai pozhuthin mayakkathhilE” with “pa pa pa MA2” where the chromatic movement from Pa to Ma2 can be mapped to the word “mayakkam”. So to me the song “mAlai pozhuthin” considering MSV’s instincts and the general composing predispositions, I would call as a mix of Sudha Dhanyasi and Madhukauns (Sumanesa Ranjani). Check out the futility of trying to arrive at an absolute truth in this relative world !!!! If I am desirous of getting somewhere close to the “TRUTH” , I would implement the above modus operandi.

Apart from the individual composing instincts and the general composing “habits” , certain other elements could be considered too. Considering what Sampath stated, the plausible answer to “uLLathhil nalla uLLam” raga conundrum is Chakravagam as Sarasangi was not in circulation during those times or atleast did not occupy a position of pride in any Vidhwan’s singing repertoire. There are umpteen number of such vista points that need to be factored in for getting close to the neighbourhood of the truth.

Now, just as an aside and for kicks, if MSV steps in and says that he got suddenly reminded of Sarasangi as taught to him by Neelakanta Bhagavathar, all our conjectural stabs get squashed !!! So, moral of the story, check with the composer himself or consider the composer’s preferences.
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S.SAMPAT
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Vatsan,


This is what I have been writing all these days. As you said, Malaipozhithin mayakathile could be a combination of Hindolam and Chandrakauns or else Suddha danyasi and Sumanesa Ranjani.

This fact has already been explained by the Great Genius, my guru Sri T N Seshagopalan in detail in Sun TV sapthaswarangal long back . He said this song is based 4 ragas. That is combination of two ragas Hindolam and Chandrakauns or else Suddha danyasi and Sumanesa Ranjani.

That is why I did not discuss this song in this post

Vatsan, the highlight is, scale of the same song appeared to you differently at different point of time as Suddha dhanyasi ( TFM forum) and Hindolam (when you told NYM)!!!!

Ellam indha Manam paduthum paadu !!!!
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N Y MURALI
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

திரு சம்பத் அவர்களே,
பொறுமை. பொறுமை. உங்கள் அளவுக்கு எனக்கு இசை ஞானம் இல்லை என்பதால் சற்று நேரம் பிடிக்கும்.

நான் முன்னர் கூறிய பதிவில் சிலபதிகாரத்தில் வரும் ஒரு நிகழ்வை பற்றி கூறினேன். அதை மீண்டும் பாருங்கள்.

யாழ் மற்றும் குழல் வாசிப்பவர் இருவருமே 'C' என்ற ஸ்வரத்தை ஆதார ஸ்ருதியாக அமைந்த 'சங்கராபரணம்' ராகத்தையே வாசிக்கிறார்கள் என்று சொன்னேன். மேலும் அது F to F(sorry முன்பு F to E என்று தவறாக குறிப்பிட்டு விட்டேன்) என்ற வரிசையில் அமைந்தது என்றும் சொன்னேன். அதன் மேலும் இதில் யாழ் வாசிப்பவர் இட முறையாகவும் அதாவது ச-ம1 முறைப்படியும் குழல் வாசிப்பவர் வல முறையாகவும் ச-ப முறைப்படியும் வாசிப்பதாக சொன்னேன்.

அவர்கள் எவ்வாறு 'C' ஸ்வரத்தை அனுகியிருப்பார்கள்?

யாழ் வாசிப்பவர் இடமுறைபடி அதாவது anticlockwiseபடி 'C' என்ற ஸ்வரத்தை 'ப' என்பார். அதே சமயம் குழல் வசிப்பவர் வல முறைப்படி அதே 'C' என்ற ஸ்வரத்தை 'ச' என்பார்.

அதுபோலதான் கரஹரபிர்யா ராகத்தில் அமைந்த 'மகாராஜன்' பாடல் 'D' ல் அமைந்தால் 'G' என்ற ஸ்வரத்தை நீங்கள் 'ச' என்று சொல்லுகிறீர்கள். ஏனென்றால் நீங்கள் 'G' ஐ 'ச' ஆக கொள்ளுகிறீர்கள். அதுவே உங்களுக்கு ஆதார சட்ஜம் ஆகும். அது ஏனெனில் நீங்கள் வல முறைப்படி பார்கிறீர்கள். அதையே நான் 'ம1' என்று சொல்லுகிறேன். ஏனெனில் நான் இடமுறைபடி பார்க்கிறேன். நான் இடமுறைபடி பார்ப்பதால் எனக்கு 'D' என்ற ஸ்வரம் ஆதார சட்ஜம் ஆகும். மேலும் அதே 'D' ஸ்வரம் 'G' ஸ்வரத்திற்கு வலமிருந்து இடமாக 4வது ஸ்வரம், that is G,F,E,D. எனவே 'G' க்கு 'D' இடமுறைபடி மத்யமம். நீங்கள் 'G'ஐ ஆதார ஸ்ருதியாக கொண்டதால் நீங்கள் 'D'ஐ ச நி த ப என்று 'ப' வாக கொள்வீர்கள். ஏனென்றால் நீங்கள் வல முறைப்படி அதனை அவரோகனமாக பார்கிறீர்கள். ஆனால் நான் இடமுறை படி உங்கள் ஆதார ஸ்ருதியான 'G' லிருந்து ச நி த ப என்பதை ச ரி க ம என்று பார்கிறேன். அவ்வாறு அவரோகனமாக வருவதை இசை முறையில் கொள்ளமுடியாததால் உங்களை போன்றே 'D' ஸ்வரத்தை இடமுறையில் வந்த 'ம' வை 'ச' ஆக கொள்கிறேன். எனவே 'D' என்பது 'ச' ஆகி விடுகிறது. 'G' ஸ்வரம் 'ம1' ஆகிவிடுகிறது. வல முறைப்படி ச-ப வும் இட முறைப்படி ச-ம வும் ஒன்று தானே..

இதே விஷயத்தை தான் திரு ராமமூர்த்தி 'மாலை பொழுதின் மயக்கத்திலே' பாடல் போது சொன்னார். சிலப்பதிகார பாடலுக்கும் , ராமமூர்த்தி சொன்ன பாடலுக்கும் ஒரு முக்கிய வித்யாசம் உள்ளது. சிலப்பதிகார பாடலில் F to F என்ற order. எனவே 'C' க்கு 'பா'

ஆனால் ராமமூர்த்தி பாடல் C to C என்ற order. எனவே ராமமூர்த்தி வாசித்தது 'சா சா ச ச சா' என்பதை அன்று அவர்கள் 'பா பா பப பா' என்று வாசித்தார்கள். ராமமூர்த்தி சொன்னது என்ன? அவர் வாசித்தது F minor. அதாவது இட முறை. ஆனால் என்று நிகழ்ச்சியில் அவர்கள் வாசித்து C minor. அதாவது வலமுறை.

யாழ் வாசித்தவன் ஆதார ஸ்ருதி 'F'. குழல் வாசித்தவன் ஆதார ஸ்ருதி 'C'. யாழ் வாசித்தவன் வாசித்தது F major. அதாவது இட முறை. குழல் வாசித்தவன் வாசித்தது C major. அதாவது வலமுறை.

இங்கு ஒரு விஷயத்தை நீங்கள் தெளிவாக புரிந்து கொள்ள வேண்டும். மேற்கூறிய யாழில் 14 strings உள்ளன. அது F,G,A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A,B,D,E, F என்ற முறையில் உள்ளன. எனவே F to F அமைந்த இந்த நிரலுக்கு 'C என்ற 'ப' என்பது இடமுறையாக வருகிறது. ஆனால் குழல் வாசித்தவனுக்கு அதே 'C' என்பது 'ச' என்று வல முறையாக உள்ளது.

ஒரு பேச்சுக்கு 'க' என்ற ஸ்வரத்தை அவர்கள் வாசித்த போது என்ன சோர்ட்ஸ் வாசித்திருப்பார்கள்? க மேஜர் என்றால் குழல் வாசிப்பவன் அதை ச-க2-பா வாக கொள்வான். யாழ் வாசிப்பவன் ப-நி2-ரி2 ஆகா கொள்வான்.
எனவே இதிலிருந்து ஒன்று தெளிவாக தெரிகிறதா? அதாவது இந்த ஸ்ருதி மாற்ற நிலையில் ராகம் மாறாமல் இருந்தால் ஸ்வரங்களின் பெயர்கள் மாறும். ஸ்வரங்களின் பெயர் மாறினால் ராகம் மாறும்.

ஒரு பேச்சுக்கு 'க' என்ற ஸ்வரத்தை அவர்கள் வாசித்த போது என்ன chords வாசித்திருப்பார்கள்? C Major என்றால் குழல் வாசிப்பவன் அதை ச-க2-பா வாக கொள்வான். யாழ் வாசிப்பவன் ப-நி2-ரி2 ஆகா கொள்வான்.

எனவே இதிலிருந்து ஒன்று தெளிவாக தெரிகிறதா? அதாவது இந்த ஸ்ருதி மாற்ற நிலையில் ராகம் மாறாமல் இருந்தால் ஸ்வரங்களின் பெயர்கள் மாறும். ஸ்வரங்களின் பெயர் மாறினால் ராகம் மாறும்.

Sampath quote
Quote:
அன்பு முரளி அவர்களே,


குழல் வாசிப்பவன் - C D E F வாசித்திருந்தால்,

யாழ் வாசிப்பவன் என்ன வாசித்திருப்பான்?

மேலும் இங்கு, C தான் ஆதார ஸ்ருதி என்று சொல்லப்பட்டுள்ளதா? இல்லை நீங்கள் கூறுகிறீர்களா?


அதில் கொடுக்கப்பட்ட விவரம். யாழ் வாசிப்பவன் இடமுறையில் 'செம்பாலை' வாசிக்கிறான். இடமுறையில் 'செம்பாலை' என்பது சங்கராபரணம் ஆகும். குழல் வாசிப்பவன் வல முறையில் 'கோடி பாலை' வாசிக்கிறான். வல முறையில் 'கோடி பாலை' என்பது அதே சங்கராபரணம். மற்றும் ஒரு முக்கியமான விஷயம். நான் ஏற்கனவே சொன்ன F-F என்ற 14 stringsல், minor tones கிடையாது. ஏனெனில் பண்ணிசை காலத்தில் 7 ஸ்வரங்கள் தான். எனவே அதனை ஆதார ஸ்ருதி மாற்றி சங்கராபரணம், கரஹரப்ரியா, தோடி, கல்யாணி, ஹரிகாம்போஜி, நட பைரவி மற்றும் இரு மத்யம தோடி என்று 7 சம்பூர்ண ராகங்கள் தான் இருந்தது. எனவே சங்கராபரணத்தை 'C' ஐ தவிர வேறு ஸ்வரங்களை ஆதாரமாக கொண்டு வாசிக்கவே முடியாது

நன்றி.[/b]
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S.SAMPAT
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

அட ராமசந்தரா,


முரளி, அங்கே, சொல்லப்பட்டது, வாசிக்கப்பட்டது

C majorல் CONTRATRY MOTION.... இதற்கும் சம ஸ்ருதிக்கும், மத்யம ஸ்ருதி அறவே சம்பந்தமில்லை.

முரளி நீங்கள் முழுவதுமாக குழம்பி போயிருக்கிறீர்கள்.

நான் விடை பெறுகிறேன். வணக்கம்.
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N Y MURALI
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

S.SAMPAT wrote:
அட ராமசந்தரா,


முரளி, அங்கே, சொல்லப்பட்டது, வாசிக்கப்பட்டது

C majorல் CONTRATRY MOTION.... இதற்கும் சம ஸ்ருதிக்கும், மத்யம ஸ்ருதி அறவே சம்பந்தமில்லை.

முரளி நீங்கள் முழுவதுமாக குழம்பி போயிருக்கிறீர்கள்.

நான் விடை பெறுகிறேன். வணக்கம்.


அன்புள்ள சம்பத் அவர்களே,

நான் குழம்பிபோய் உங்களையும் குழப்பி இருந்தால் தயவு செய்து மன்னிக்கவும். May be I would have used a wrong terminology. Contrary motion என்றால் என்ன என்று விளக்கி விட்டு சென்றிருக்கலாம். அது என்ன?

முடிந்தால் தெளிவுபடுத்துங்கள்.

நன்றி.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
ஆயினும் இது அவரோஹனம் என்ற ச நி த ப ம க ரி ச வுக்கு எப்படி பொருந்தும் என்ற கேள்வி எழலாம். ஒரு நிமிடம் இந்த ச நி த ப ம க ரி ச என்ற அவரோகனதை, ச ரி க ம ப த நி ச என்ற ஆரோகனமாக பாருங்கள். it is just an abstract thinking. அப்போது மேல் சா வுக்கு அடுத்து வரும் நி என்பது 'ரி' என்று கொள்ளத்தானே வேண்டும். அவ்வாறு வரும் போது இதன் தொடர்புகள்

நி-ரி
த-க
ப-ம
ம-ப
என்று வருவதை காண்பீர்கள்.அவ்வாறு வரும் போது, இடமுறையில் 5வது ஸ்வரமாக வருவது 'ம' ஆக இருக்கும். 5வது ஸ்வரம் நடு பகுதி என்ற முறையில் 'ம' என்பது வலமுறையின் ச-ப-ச என்பதற்கு equivalent. அதாவது வலமுறையில் ச-ப-ச என்றால் இடமுறையில் ச-ம-ச



இது என்ன?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
அவர்கள் எவ்வாறு 'C' ஸ்வரத்தை அனுகியிருப்பார்கள்?

யாழ் வாசிப்பவர் இடமுறைபடி அதாவது anticlockwiseபடி 'C' என்ற ஸ்வரத்தை 'ப' என்பார். அதே சமயம் குழல் வசிப்பவர் வல முறைப்படி அதே 'C' என்ற ஸ்வரத்தை 'ச' என்பார்.


இது எங்கு சொல்லப்பட்டுள்ளது?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

S.SAMPAT wrote:
அன்பு முரளி அவர்களே,


குழல் வாசிப்பவன் - C D E F வாசித்திருந்தால்,

யாழ் வாசிப்பவன் என்ன வாசித்திருப்பான்?

மேலும் இங்கு, C தான் ஆதார ஸ்ருதி என்று சொல்லப்பட்டுள்ளதா? இல்லை நீங்கள் கூறுகிறீர்களா?


இதற்கு உங்கள் பதில் என்ன?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

மேற்கூறிய மூன்றையும் முதலில் தெளிவுபடுத்துங்கள்.

நீங்கள் என்ன புரிந்து கொண்டீர்கள் என்பதை தெளிவாக எழுதுங்கள். புத்தகத்தில் என்ன சொல்லப்பட்டிருக்கிறது என்பதை எழுதாதீர்கள். அதில் நீங்கள் என்ன புரிந்து கொண்டீர்கள் என்பதை, ஸ்வர உதாரணத்துடன் முதலின் விளக்குங்கள்.

பின், என் சிற்றறிவுக்கு எட்டிய வரை, நான் பதில் கூறுகிறேன்


அன்புடன்
சம்பத்
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N Y MURALI
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
ஆயினும் இது அவரோஹனம் என்ற ச நி த ப ம க ரி ச வுக்கு எப்படி பொருந்தும் என்ற கேள்வி எழலாம். ஒரு நிமிடம் இந்த ச நி த ப ம க ரி ச என்ற அவரோகனதை, ச ரி க ம ப த நி ச என்ற ஆரோகனமாக பாருங்கள். it is just an abstract thinking. அப்போது மேல் சா வுக்கு அடுத்து வரும் நி என்பது 'ரி' என்று கொள்ளத்தானே வேண்டும். அவ்வாறு வரும் போது இதன் தொடர்புகள்

நி-ரி
த-க
ப-ம
ம-ப
என்று வருவதை காண்பீர்கள்.அவ்வாறு வரும் போது, இடமுறையில் 5வது ஸ்வரமாக வருவது 'ம' ஆக இருக்கும். 5வது ஸ்வரம் நடு பகுதி என்ற முறையில் 'ம' என்பது வலமுறையின் ச-ப-ச என்பதற்கு equivalent. அதாவது வலமுறையில் ச-ப-ச என்றால் இடமுறையில் ச-ம-ச



இது என்ன?


Quote:
Quote:
அவர்கள் எவ்வாறு 'C' ஸ்வரத்தை அனுகியிருப்பார்கள்?

யாழ் வாசிப்பவர் இடமுறைபடி அதாவது anticlockwiseபடி 'C' என்ற ஸ்வரத்தை 'ப' என்பார். அதே சமயம் குழல் வசிப்பவர் வல முறைப்படி அதே 'C' என்ற ஸ்வரத்தை 'ச' என்பார்.


இது எங்கு சொல்லப்பட்டுள்ளது?

Quote:

S.SAMPAT wrote:
அன்பு முரளி அவர்களே,


குழல் வாசிப்பவன் - C D E F வாசித்திருந்தால்,

யாழ் வாசிப்பவன் என்ன வாசித்திருப்பான்?

மேலும் இங்கு, C தான் ஆதார ஸ்ருதி என்று சொல்லப்பட்டுள்ளதா? இல்லை நீங்கள் கூறுகிறீர்களா?


இதற்கு உங்கள் பதில் என்ன?



Mr. Sampath,
Thanks for your posts. Give me some time. I shall answer for each of your queries. Till such time Please bear with me.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: Resp. Reply with quote

Vatsan wrote:
Sampath and NYM, let me add my few pennies worth in this intensely technical topic. In this relative world which is replete with perspectives i.e. various angles through which an absolute truth is viewed, discernment of aadhaara "Sa" in a film song (read light music) is the mother of all relative phenomena. My take on this is pretty simple, we tend to discern a raaga in a film song or in general, any song based on how we have "received" and registered our earlier skirmishes with the raaga. That is pure play mental conditioning which comes into play when we set about determining the raaga of a song. For instance I remember referring to "namma ooru singari" as Sudha Dhanyasi based, in tfmpage.com only because when I hummed the song before making that particular post, it showed flashes of "subramanyena" sung by Maharajapuram Santhanam. A friend of mine responded to me with a friendly rebuttal calling it as Hindolam but yet I found no reason to dump my finding as hogwash and to consider my friend's as a gospel truth, it is a matter which window you took a peek at the song through. Simple !!!!
So how do we go about with this business ? Do we consider the starting chord ? Emphatically no…because the pitch or the sruthi a song is presented in, in films is based on the mood or the mix of sentiments to be conveyed. So that goes out of the window hook, line and sinker. There is no thanpoora to hold onto as a crutch as well. Till the composer himself is approached in this regard we have to float around as people viewing the sun wearing coloured glasses and attributing a colour to the sun based on the colour of the sun glasses in question !!!!
If escalating the issue to the composer is out of question, one may take into consideration the composer’s instincts or the prevailing composing “habits” at the point in time of the song conception. For instance, “mAlai pozhuthin mayakkathhilE” is mapped to Chandrakauns by all and sundry, on and off TV channels. Let me offer my perspective in this regard. I know that MSV cannot be spoken to in this regard considering his penchant for stonewalling all attempts to travel into his own compositions with him. My next option would be to consider the prevalent practice during the late 50s and early 60s to musically portray inebriation, intoxication, swirled senses or even the case of the viles of a woman enticing a man to fall into her “lap” trap. Check out “mannava vA vA magizha vA” a case of a woman inviting her partner with lasciviousness that shows (in my perspective) reverse chromatic “Pa-Ma2” movement. MSV himself used the “Sa ga PA-mA2” movement in “ninaithhAl sirippu varum “ in the late 60s for a woman tipsy with an aphrodisiac and thus stumbling around. Once again, considering the prevalent composing predilection of those days and the composer’s individual instincts, I would start “mAlai pozhuthin mayakkathhilE” with “pa pa pa MA2” where the chromatic movement from Pa to Ma2 can be mapped to the word “mayakkam”. So to me the song “mAlai pozhuthin” considering MSV’s instincts and the general composing predispositions, I would call as a mix of Sudha Dhanyasi and Madhukauns (Sumanesa Ranjani). Check out the futility of trying to arrive at an absolute truth in this relative world !!!! If I am desirous of getting somewhere close to the “TRUTH” , I would implement the above modus operandi.

Apart from the individual composing instincts and the general composing “habits” , certain other elements could be considered too. Considering what Sampath stated, the plausible answer to “uLLathhil nalla uLLam” raga conundrum is Chakravagam as Sarasangi was not in circulation during those times or atleast did not occupy a position of pride in any Vidhwan’s singing repertoire. There are umpteen number of such vista points that need to be factored in for getting close to the neighbourhood of the truth.

Now, just as an aside and for kicks, if MSV steps in and says that he got suddenly reminded of Sarasangi as taught to him by Neelakanta Bhagavathar, all our conjectural stabs get squashed !!! So, moral of the story, check with the composer himself or consider the composer’s preferences.


Dear Vatsan,
In the case of 'maalai pozhudhin, we have the data given by the one of the duo Mr. TKR. Now if we see he says that the song as he played was starting from 'sa'. And he also said that it was F minor. Where as he stated that what was played in that evening was it was started with 'pa' and it was C minor.

Now with this data available let us see what it is. If the starting of the song is 'Sa' and if that is F minor, then we all know that the athaara shruthi is 'C'. And for a raga that starts with 'C' as adhaara shruthi, F minor is madhyama shruthii as it ha sa-ma1-da1.(Please note that when I say madhyama shruthi it is not what Mr. Sampath says as in Carnatic music) Hence I said that this is in anticlockwise motion.Then when you check the melody with the notes through which it flows you will see that it is basically is Hindolam/Chandragouns.

But what was played that evening was it was started with 'pa'. And it was 'C' minor. Again 'C' is the adhaaara shruthi. And hence it is in clockwise motion. So when you check the melody with the notes you will only notice that it is basically Sudha dhanyaasi/Sumanesa ranjani. Right?

So here understanding the raga whether it is hindolam/chandragouns or Sudha dhanyasi/sumanesa ranjani based on the adhaara shruthi which is 'C' in both the cases, would be futile. Because Please understand that when the song was recorded 50 years ago it was note 'C' that was 'SA'.
But what they played that day was 'G' as 'PA'. So here the adhaara shruthi which is 'C' hence one could easily identify it as Hindolam/CHandragouns and not Sudha dhanyasi/Sumanesa ranjani.

Now you could counter me by saying why should I keep 'G' as 'Pa' as played on that day and say you could still call it as 'Sa'. Fine. Then the adhaara shruthi becomes 'G' from 'C'. And hence C minor which you will play for the beginning note 'Sa' would become ma1-da1-sa which again makes this song as anticlockwise motion.

But I do agree with you that the starting chord need not necessarily revel the scale. For that you need to see the complete melody and understand. In 'malai pozhudhn' you will notice that in most of the cases it involves ma1-da1-sa and not sa-ga1-pa.

Again one could still say why not the first note of the song which starts with 'C' as 'SA' and why not 'pa' and the starting chords is F minor. Yes. Then it is in clockwise motion and the raga becomes Sudha dhanyasi/sumanesa ranjani. But most importantly the adhaara shruthi will not be 'C but will be 'F'.


Thanks,
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:28 am    Post subject: Re: Resp. Reply with quote

Vatsan wrote:
Sampath and NYM, let me add my few pennies worth in this intensely technical topic. In this relative world which is replete with perspectives i.e. various angles through which an absolute truth is viewed, discernment of aadhaara "Sa" in a film song (read light music) is the mother of all relative phenomena. My take on this is pretty simple, we tend to discern a raaga in a film song or in general, any song based on how we have "received" and registered our earlier skirmishes with the raaga. That is pure play mental conditioning which comes into play when we set about determining the raaga of a song. For instance I remember referring to "namma ooru singari" as Sudha Dhanyasi based, in tfmpage.com only because when I hummed the song before making that particular post, it showed flashes of "subramanyena" sung by Maharajapuram Santhanam. A friend of mine responded to me with a friendly rebuttal calling it as Hindolam but yet I found no reason to dump my finding as hogwash and to consider my friend's as a gospel truth, it is a matter which window you took a peek at the song through. Simple !!!!
So how do we go about with this business ? Do we consider the starting chord ? Emphatically no…because the pitch or the sruthi a song is presented in, in films is based on the mood or the mix of sentiments to be conveyed. So that goes out of the window hook, line and sinker. There is no thanpoora to hold onto as a crutch as well. Till the composer himself is approached in this regard we have to float around as people viewing the sun wearing coloured glasses and attributing a colour to the sun based on the colour of the sun glasses in question !!!!
If escalating the issue to the composer is out of question, one may take into consideration the composer’s instincts or the prevailing composing “habits” at the point in time of the song conception. For instance, “mAlai pozhuthin mayakkathhilE” is mapped to Chandrakauns by all and sundry, on and off TV channels. Let me offer my perspective in this regard. I know that MSV cannot be spoken to in this regard considering his penchant for stonewalling all attempts to travel into his own compositions with him. My next option would be to consider the prevalent practice during the late 50s and early 60s to musically portray inebriation, intoxication, swirled senses or even the case of the viles of a woman enticing a man to fall into her “lap” trap. Check out “mannava vA vA magizha vA” a case of a woman inviting her partner with lasciviousness that shows (in my perspective) reverse chromatic “Pa-Ma2” movement. MSV himself used the “Sa ga PA-mA2” movement in “ninaithhAl sirippu varum “ in the late 60s for a woman tipsy with an aphrodisiac and thus stumbling around. Once again, considering the prevalent composing predilection of those days and the composer’s individual instincts, I would start “mAlai pozhuthin mayakkathhilE” with “pa pa pa MA2” where the chromatic movement from Pa to Ma2 can be mapped to the word “mayakkam”. So to me the song “mAlai pozhuthin” considering MSV’s instincts and the general composing predispositions, I would call as a mix of Sudha Dhanyasi and Madhukauns (Sumanesa Ranjani). Check out the futility of trying to arrive at an absolute truth in this relative world !!!! If I am desirous of getting somewhere close to the “TRUTH” , I would implement the above modus operandi.

Apart from the individual composing instincts and the general composing “habits” , certain other elements could be considered too. Considering what Sampath stated, the plausible answer to “uLLathhil nalla uLLam” raga conundrum is Chakravagam as Sarasangi was not in circulation during those times or atleast did not occupy a position of pride in any Vidhwan’s singing repertoire. There are umpteen number of such vista points that need to be factored in for getting close to the neighbourhood of the truth.

Now, just as an aside and for kicks, if MSV steps in and says that he got suddenly reminded of Sarasangi as taught to him by Neelakanta Bhagavathar, all our conjectural stabs get squashed !!! So, moral of the story, check with the composer himself or consider the composer’s preferences.


Dear Vatsan,
In the case of 'maalai pozhudhin, we have the data given by the one of the duo Mr. TKR. Now if we see he says that the song as he played was starting from 'sa'. And he also said that it was F minor. Where as he stated that what was played in that evening was it was started with 'pa' and it was C minor.

Now with this data available let us see what it is. If the starting of the song is 'Sa' and if that is F minor, then we all know that the athaara shruthi is 'C'. And for a raga that starts with 'C' as adhaara shruthi, F minor is madhyama shruthii as it ha sa-ma1-da1.(Please note that when I say madhyama shruthi it is not what Mr. Sampath says as in Carnatic music) Hence I said that this is in anticlockwise motion.Then when you check the melody with the notes through which it flows you will see that it is basically is Hindolam/Chandragouns.

But what was played that evening was it was started with 'pa'. And it was 'C' minor. Again 'C' is the adhaaara shruthi. And hence it is in clockwise motion. So when you check the melody with the notes you will only notice that it is basically Sudha dhanyaasi/Sumanesa ranjani. Right?

So here understanding the raga whether it is hindolam/chandragouns or Sudha dhanyasi/sumanesa ranjani based on the adhaara shruthi which is 'C' in both the cases, would be futile. Because Please understand that when the song was recorded 50 years ago it was note 'C' that was 'SA'.
But what they played that day was 'G' as 'PA'. So here the adhaara shruthi which is 'C' hence one could easily identify it as Hindolam/CHandragouns and not Sudha dhanyasi/Sumanesa ranjani.

Now you could counter me by saying why should I keep 'G' as 'Pa' as played on that day and say you could still call it as 'Sa'. Fine. Then the adhaara shruthi becomes 'G' from 'C'. And hence C minor which you will play for the beginning note 'Sa' would become ma1-da1-sa which again makes this song as anticlockwise motion.

But I do agree with you that the starting chord need not necessarily revel the scale. For that you need to see the complete melody and understand. In 'malai pozhudhn' you will notice that in most of the cases it involves ma1-da1-sa and not sa-ga1-pa.

Again one could still say why not the first note of the song which starts with 'C' as 'SA' as played by TKR 50 years ago should be 'Sa' and why not we consider the same as 'pa'. Yes. Very much possible. Then the starting chord which is F minor will note be read as Ma1-Da1-Sa but as Sa-Ga1-Pa. Then it is in clockwise motion and the raga becomes Sudha dhanyasi/sumanesa ranjani. But most importantly the adhaara shruthi will not be 'C but will be 'F'.


Thanks.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: Resp. Reply with quote

Vatsan wrote:
Sampath and NYM, let me add my few pennies worth in this intensely technical topic. In this relative world which is replete with perspectives i.e. various angles through which an absolute truth is viewed, discernment of aadhaara "Sa" in a film song (read light music) is the mother of all relative phenomena. My take on this is pretty simple, we tend to discern a raaga in a film song or in general, any song based on how we have "received" and registered our earlier skirmishes with the raaga. That is pure play mental conditioning which comes into play when we set about determining the raaga of a song. For instance I remember referring to "namma ooru singari" as Sudha Dhanyasi based, in tfmpage.com only because when I hummed the song before making that particular post, it showed flashes of "subramanyena" sung by Maharajapuram Santhanam. A friend of mine responded to me with a friendly rebuttal calling it as Hindolam but yet I found no reason to dump my finding as hogwash and to consider my friend's as a gospel truth, it is a matter which window you took a peek at the song through. Simple !!!!
So how do we go about with this business ? Do we consider the starting chord ? Emphatically no…because the pitch or the sruthi a song is presented in, in films is based on the mood or the mix of sentiments to be conveyed. So that goes out of the window hook, line and sinker. There is no thanpoora to hold onto as a crutch as well. Till the composer himself is approached in this regard we have to float around as people viewing the sun wearing coloured glasses and attributing a colour to the sun based on the colour of the sun glasses in question !!!!
If escalating the issue to the composer is out of question, one may take into consideration the composer’s instincts or the prevailing composing “habits” at the point in time of the song conception. For instance, “mAlai pozhuthin mayakkathhilE” is mapped to Chandrakauns by all and sundry, on and off TV channels. Let me offer my perspective in this regard. I know that MSV cannot be spoken to in this regard considering his penchant for stonewalling all attempts to travel into his own compositions with him. My next option would be to consider the prevalent practice during the late 50s and early 60s to musically portray inebriation, intoxication, swirled senses or even the case of the viles of a woman enticing a man to fall into her “lap” trap. Check out “mannava vA vA magizha vA” a case of a woman inviting her partner with lasciviousness that shows (in my perspective) reverse chromatic “Pa-Ma2” movement. MSV himself used the “Sa ga PA-mA2” movement in “ninaithhAl sirippu varum “ in the late 60s for a woman tipsy with an aphrodisiac and thus stumbling around. Once again, considering the prevalent composing predilection of those days and the composer’s individual instincts, I would start “mAlai pozhuthin mayakkathhilE” with “pa pa pa MA2” where the chromatic movement from Pa to Ma2 can be mapped to the word “mayakkam”. So to me the song “mAlai pozhuthin” considering MSV’s instincts and the general composing predispositions, I would call as a mix of Sudha Dhanyasi and Madhukauns (Sumanesa Ranjani). Check out the futility of trying to arrive at an absolute truth in this relative world !!!! If I am desirous of getting somewhere close to the “TRUTH” , I would implement the above modus operandi.

Apart from the individual composing instincts and the general composing “habits” , certain other elements could be considered too. Considering what Sampath stated, the plausible answer to “uLLathhil nalla uLLam” raga conundrum is Chakravagam as Sarasangi was not in circulation during those times or atleast did not occupy a position of pride in any Vidhwan’s singing repertoire. There are umpteen number of such vista points that need to be factored in for getting close to the neighbourhood of the truth.

Now, just as an aside and for kicks, if MSV steps in and says that he got suddenly reminded of Sarasangi as taught to him by Neelakanta Bhagavathar, all our conjectural stabs get squashed !!! So, moral of the story, check with the composer himself or consider the composer’s preferences.


Dear Vatsan,
In the case of 'maalai pozhudhin, we have the data given by the one of the duo Mr. TKR. Now if we see he says that the song as he played was starting from 'sa'. And he also said that it was F minor. Where as he stated that what was played in that evening was it was started with 'pa' and it was C minor.

Now with this data available let us see what it is. If the starting of the song is 'Sa' and if that is F minor, then we all know that the athaara shruthi is 'C'. And for a raga that starts with 'C' as adhaara shruthi, F minor is madhyama shruthii as it ha sa-ma1-da1.(Please note that when I say madhyama shruthi it is not what Mr. Sampath says as in Carnatic music) Hence I said that this is in anticlockwise motion.Then when you check the melody with the notes through which it flows you will see that it is basically is Hindolam/Chandragouns.

But what was played that evening was it was started with 'pa'. And it was 'C' minor. Again 'C' is the adhaaara shruthi. And hence it is in clockwise motion. So when you check the melody with the notes you will only notice that it is basically Sudha dhanyaasi/Sumanesa ranjani. Right?

So here understanding the raga whether it is hindolam/chandragouns or Sudha dhanyasi/sumanesa ranjani based on the just by hearing a melody would be futile as you don't know whether it is 'Sa' or 'Pa' or whatever.

Please understand that when the song was recorded 50 years ago it was note 'C' that was 'SA' as per TKR. But what they played that day was 'G' as 'PA'. So here the adhaara shruthi which is 'C' hence one could easily identify it as Hindolam/CHandragouns and not Sudha dhanyasi/Sumanesa ranjani.

Now you could counter me by saying why should I keep 'G' as 'Pa' as played on that day and say you could still call it as 'Sa'. Fine. Then the adhaara shruthi becomes 'G' from 'C'. And hence C minor which you will play for the beginning note 'Sa' would become ma1-da1-sa which again makes this song as anticlockwise motion.

But I do agree with you that the starting chord need not necessarily revel the scale. For that you need to see the complete melody and understand. In 'malai pozhudhn' you will notice that in most of the cases it involves ma1-da1-sa and not sa-ga1-pa.

Again one could still say why the first note of the song which starts with 'C' should be called as 'SA' and not 'pa'. Since the starting chord is F minor, it is in clockwise motion and the raga becomes Sudha dhanyasi/sumanesa ranjani. But most importantly the adhaara shruthi will not be 'C but will be 'F'.


Thanks,
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S.SAMPAT
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Murali


Do we a have recording of the "Malai pozhithin" as played by Kalyan that day? If yes, please provide the link.


Kindly do not write clockwise, anticlockwise until you yourself get clarified as to what they are.

Anbudan,
Sampat
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N Y MURALI
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

S.SAMPAT wrote:
Dear Murali


Do we a have recording of the "Malai pozhithin" as played by Kalyan that day? If yes, please provide the link.


Kindly do not write clockwise, anticlockwise until you yourself get clarified as to what they are.

Anbudan,
Sampat


Sorry. I do not have it.
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